Graphics aren't important? Bullsh*t

[Stocka]

Graphics do not SOLELY make a game great, I agree, but I can't help but feel that it was wrong for Nintendo to neglect a significant improvement on visuals.
Yes the wiimote is interesting and all, and will surely be incredibly fun, but after seeing some footage of PS3 games today I feel that it is ridiculous to say immensely improved graphics do not evolve video games. I'm not comfortable with the fact that its basically GC graphics again for a few years. After seeing this for example (White Knight Story - PS3) :
http://www.gameklip.com/v/1547
...I have to say to myself, "how could I and others NOT want Zelda/RPGs on Wii to look like that?"

Visuals are a massive part of gaming and create the whole experience. Games can be great without great visuals, yes, like WarioWare, but how can you say Resident Evil 4 for example would be just as good with ..Sega Saturn like graphics.
Take Shenmue for instance, my favourite game. What makes me love it so much is the story and the interaction that is created and presented beautifully using awesome graphics and sound making the whole experience so immersive. Visuals are a major part of the balance.

End of my rant. I might of gone a bit over the top as a result of being quite tired and just watching tons of PS3 videos, but please discuss :smile:

[Hellfire]

Oh no, not this again.

[myster0n]

Et tu, Stocka?

[Fierce_LiNk]

Et tu, Stocka?

Julius Caesar?


"but how can you say Resident Evil 4 for example would be just as good with ..Sega Saturn like graphics."

Well, that's quite a jump. When we say graphics don't matter, many of us don't want our games to look hideous.

I think many of us would prefer that the game 'felt' next-gen, rather than just look it. With the Wii, many of us are expecting sufficient graphics, and there will be the occassional game that will blow us out of the water (there always is, no matter how weak the console). But, as long as the graphics are not well below par, and as long as they accomodate the experience, then there should be no problem.

Yeah, the PS3's showing off some nice games. But, it comes at a price. Plus, a nice expensive tv to fully show off these nice games. Can we all afford this? Hell no.

[Mundi]

Deja vu......
This thread will soon plunge into the conversations:

Person A: Blah blah technical stuff bumb mapping xbox360 ps3 dev stuff

Person B: bla blah proggresive stuff dev kit GC

Person A and B will be making the same argument just in other words for 2 pages then enters the smart guy, person C!

Person C: blah blah blah prggresive blah blah blah dev kit blah blah technical stuff blah blah blah hard to develop ps3 yatty yatty yatta, early de v kit wii technical stuff.
*link to some techincal site* this site shows blah blah blah techinncal stuff that dev kit better then blah blah HD unimportant blah blah proggresive scan just needed blah blah blah, can´t force new technology yatty yatta this way is better blah blah blah.
and so on and so on until you just scroll down the page.

[thomaschung]

Yes this again, and sure it should be a very hot topic. fact is - with the power of the Wii, I think Nintendo will, I'm afraid push a lot of their core fan base away on to one of the other two consoles. Sure they will still buy a Wii just to satify their zelda, mario, metroid needs etc.

But once they make that jump, then they may not be such big Nintendo fans anymore because they will experience a lot of other great games. I am one such gamer, dedicated to Nintendo since owning the N64 but I will be very tempted by the xbox360 and ps3 simply because great 3rd parties games will be better on them.

This whole new control is great, but not necessarily that great on certain games that we will choose it over the better looking version. Afterall there wasn't all that wrong with the traditional control method most of us have been used to for years.

I'm sure it won't be that big of a problem for Nintendo as they will attract a wider, broader audience and achieve their sales. But Wii will be more for casual gamers than hardcore gamers.

I kinda expected graphics to be twice that of Zelda, Resi 4 etc. but nothing we've seen have indicated anything better than the Cube and Xbox

[Mercyful Fate]

It's not like the Wii will have uber crappy gfx. The graphics will improve by time, the first PS2 games ddn't look THAT good and now they look pretty damn good. Just look at recent crap such as Killzone, god of war etc.. beautiful gfx.

So far I can't say that I'm displeased with Wii's graphicsl improvement since I know that it'll be the weakest of the 3 competitors in that department but I'm happy with what I've seen in games that I'm really interested in. Such as Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, Red Steel, Zelda:TP, Excite Truck etc..

I totally understand your feelings - and your rant, but I bet that when you're sitting there in your cough with the Wii-mote in your hands and fires up a game for the first time, that you will feel that the gameplay is the most important thing.

[Shino]

I just want to say that there is a middle term, don't eat what Nintendo's PR regurgitate everytime, but don't be shallow to the point of being taken by a couple of PS3 videos. There is pros and cons in everything and make your mind in a logical, non-biased way.

That is all

[Caris]

White Knight Story Looks fantasic!

[Dilli Gee]

Yeah, the PS3's showing off some nice games. But, it comes at a price. Plus, a nice expensive tv to fully show off these nice games. Can we all afford this? Hell no.
I'm sure the PS3 looks just fine in SD most. And as for the price, remember it's got a brand new shiny Blu-ray player with it, that does raise the price a bit.

As for this White Knight Story, I'm impressed. Very impressed. I guess this is the PS3's Elder Scrolls IV. But Heavenly Sword still kicks total arse (and is actually the title I'm most anticipating); it's PoP on steroids.

[Haden]

Graphics are important. But Processing power isn't nessicarly important. Give me Killer 7 over Perfect Dark Zero. Eternal Darkness over REmake. (I know a lot of people won't agree with me on the 2nd one.) But the point I am trying to make is graphics are important but its about style to of course style and power mixing is when it really goes mental. Res 4 Ocarina Halo etc.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I'm sure the PS3 looks just fine in SD most. And as for the price, remember it's got a brand new shiny Blu-ray player with it, that does raise the price a bit.



Indeed, it has. But, how many of us are actually that interested in the Blu-ray player, anyway? At least Microsoft did the smart thing and shipped (will ship) the HD-dvd drive seperately.

(well, smart thing for us who didn't want that feature. Its a good thing for sony to ship with the player, as they're forcing it on us)

[Calibur]

I kinda expected graphics to be twice that of Zelda, Resi 4 etc. but nothing we've seen have indicated anything better than the Cube and Xbox

*Looks at Twilight Princess, Smash Bros. Red Steel, Prime 3 and Excite Truck screens* :rolleyes:

[Shino]

After watching "Blue eyes white dragon" movie, I must say it looks boring, and I'm pretty sure the Wii will be capable of those graphics.

(Is anyone else getting bored with this kind of game? Anime charecter fighting fire monsters in stylized Rpg Bullcrap?)

[Dilli Gee]

I know graphics aren't everything, but you'd think Nintendo would create a system with a little bit more potential in that department. Wii seems really lazy on that front.

No wonder so many developers are jumping on the Wii wagon, all they need to do is port over the Xbox version of their games and change the controls. It's cheap to port. But that's not a "revolution" at all.

If the Wii had Xbox 360 graphics, nobody here would ever say "graphics aren't important", because they would never need to. And the Wii is coming out a whole year after the Xbox 360. You'd think for £180 they could afford graphics as powerful as the Xbox 360, if not better, but they haven't even tried.

I personally think it's to do with Nintendo not wanting to lose any money from the system itself, that's why it's a "souped-up" GameCube.

[thomaschung]

i haven't even seen the ps3 videos, but i know as we all do that they will look amazing.

i don't dislike the Wii and everying it and Nintendo are trying to achieve, but i do believe they could have pushed the graphical abilties of the Wii further so the gap is not so wide.

we talk about these being early days and later games will improve, yet we already see how great the ps3 games look, imagine in 5 or 6 years time. honestly the Wii will seriously be out of date where as the ps3 will be only half way going from strength to strength.

Could this be an all too familiar story - in 2 years the ps3 will be considered affordable, the Wii will be under £100 and cast into the corner of the shop with the DS and considered as a toy for kids.

I think Nintendo will need to think of a Wii-2 upgrade the Wii's powers by 3 or 4 years max. Shorter life span than the Cube. Things are different on the DS, where graphics are not as important for many reasons.

[Dilli Gee]

Indeed, it has. But, how many of us are actually that interested in the Blu-ray player, anyway? At least Microsoft did the smart thing and shipped (will ship) the HD-dvd drive seperately.
I'm not sure that's the case entirely. If HD-DVD kicks off, it's likely the next version of Xbox 360 will have it built in. But the normal external drive should be out soon, as they're releasing a 1080p update for Xbox 360 soon (on Live).

After watching "Blue eyes white dragon" movie, I must say it looks boring, and I'm pretty sure the Wii will be capable of those graphics.

(Is anyone else getting bored with this kind of game? Anime charecter fighting fire monsters in stylized Rpg Bullcrap?)
They're incredibly popular in Japan, just like FIFA is in the UK. As TGS is a Japanese event, they'll obviously play on that factor more than others.

As for Blue eyes white dragon, I did a Google check and it's not a video game, it's a Yu-Gi-Oh trading card. I've assumed you meant Blue Dragon, and Wii will probably eventually have graphics like that as standard, but by then Xbox 360 will be miles ahead.

And Blue Dragon is a relatively small production, of only a few dozen people. I think it's also a Japan exclusive.

*Looks at Twilight Princess, Smash Bros. Red Steel, Prime 3 and Excite Truck screens* :rolleyes:
Twilight Princess isn't really a Wii title. And out of all of those, MP3 and Red Steel are the only stellar differences between generations. Burnout Revenge on Xbox is pretty much the same graphically as Excite Truck.

[Kaeporagaebora]

Alright, here's my take on the whole thing. Listen closely, because this is the last time I will comment on Wii's graphics. Really.

It seems like alot of you forget something. Nintendo is a video game company. They're not here to make you happy, they're here to take your money. It's just simple economics. They want to make money, so they'll sell you a product. Nintendo makes good games so people will buy them. Not so they can please a bunch of rabid fanboys. Not to appease the critics. To make money. It's simple. They're a company, got it?

Moving on, because they want to make money, they had to change their strategy. A head to head competition with Sony and MS is just retarded, especially after the Cube. So now they're targeting non-gamers. Nintendo is hoping that non gamers won't say. "Hey, the PS3 looks better. I should fork over all the extra money." Nintendo hopes they'll say "Hey, that Wii thing is cheaper! And it hardly looks like a video game. Maybe I should give it a try..." That is their buisness strategy.

Do you get it? They don't give two shits about hardcore gamers. They're trying to attract a new audience, to make money. They think they can make money this way. Got it?

Alright, I'm done. That's all you'll ever hear from me.

[Cleveland_Jr]

Graphics are important. But Processing power isn't nessicarly important. Give me Killer 7 over Perfect Dark Zero. Eternal Darkness over REmake. (I know a lot of people won't agree with me on the 2nd one.) But the point I am trying to make is graphics are important but its about style to of course style and power mixing is when it really goes mental. Res 4 Ocarina Halo etc.
QFT.

Graphics are important, but when I say graphics I don't mean realism, I mean art style. Twilight princess has a brilliant manga feel to it, wind waker was a beautiful game. Thats what makes the graphics of those games immersive.

I think the argument is more about the developers than the wii itself. The wii has enough power to warrant wonderful graphical styles for games, but it appears that some developers haven't bothered to make the game look as pretty as it could.

Yes, we all know the wii would be far better if it had ps3 graphics as well as the innovative controls...but for now its either one or the other, and I choose controls.

[Shino]

They're incredibly popular in Japan, just like FIFA is in the UK. As TGS is a Japanese event, they'll obviously play on that factor more than others.

As for Blue eyes white dragon, I did a Google check and it's not a video game, it's a Yu-Gi-Oh trading card. I've assumed you meant Blue Dragon, and Wii will probably eventually have graphics like that as standard, but by then Xbox 360 will be miles ahead.

And Blue Dragon is a relatively small production, of only a few dozen people. I think it's also a Japan exclusive.

I was refering to the White Knight Story game, and that, in my ill and dwarfed brain, appeard to have some similarities with "blue eyes white dragon" (which I took from here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w71V2E3VC5s&mode=related&search=)).

Yes, I'm an idiot.

[thomaschung]

Alright, here's my take on the whole thing. Listen closely, because this is the last time I will comment on Wii's graphics. Really.

It seems like alot of you forget something. Nintendo is a video game company. They're not here to make you happy, they're here to take your money. It's just simple economics. They want to make money, so they'll sell you a product. Nintendo makes good games so people will buy them. Not so they can please a bunch of rabid fanboys. Not to appease the critics. To make money. It's simple. They're a company, got it?

Do you get it? They don't give two shits about hardcore gamers. They're trying to attract a new audience, to make money. They think they can make money this way. Got it?

Alright, I'm done. That's all you'll ever hear from me.

This is where you are completely wrong. That is a very limited view on what they are doing. Yes they are a company that wants to make a profit, but far and away more than that they are a company that want to bring the fun factor back into videogames. They are the ones doing all the innovating, and they do want to keep their loyal fans happy. They believe in games should be fun and they want to reach out to as many people as possible not just to make money but for the future of the industry as a whole.

If Nintendo were to hear your views about them and what they are doing they shoot you down without a second.

They have not changed strategies (as you say) to avoid the competition. What you think they can't stand toe to toe with them? Nintendo has been around for the longest time and I believe all their major consoles have been successful and made a profit for them. The've gone in another direction to innovate and expand the industry.

Your economics don't add up. Of course they want us to be happy else we will take are hard earned cash elsewhere. We the customers keep them going, part of the reason they are still here is because of their loyal fanbase. Aren't Nintendo the only ones with a loyalty scheme?

If you don't want to comment further on the subject, don't. No one is asking you to so don't feel obliged.

[Dilli Gee]

Then no. There's no way Wii could have graphics like that. I don't think it's physically possible.

[SpinesN]

Give me a second age of SNES and I will be happy :)

[Matias]

who said the Wii doesn't have great graphics? itso does! Look at Metroid Prime 3 and Zelda!!

[Shino]

who said the Wii doesn't have great graphics? itso does! Look at Metroid Prime 3 and Zelda!!

For some reason they don't see them as games with good graphics.

[thomaschung]

well duh, Zelda is Cube graphics. Nintendo have not improved them for the Wii. It is the best looking game on the Wii, that's the problem.

Resi 4, Cube game from a few years back looks better than any games on the Wii.

[Shino]

well duh, Zelda is Cube graphics. Nintendo have not improved them for the Wii. It is the best looking game on the Wii, that's the problem.

Resi 4, Cube game from a few years back looks better than any games on the Wii.

The more reason for believing that the Wii is capable of so much more.

[Tony_Montana]

Graphics aren't important? Bullsh*t

qft, graphics matter, not as much as gameplay but it matters.

I'm extremely dissappointed with wii graphics, for a so called "next gen" system, I expected the graphics to look at least twice as good as xbox graphics.

from snes to n64, there's a huge leap in graphics

same goes for n64 to gc

but can you say the same for gc to wii?

[Sooj]

Remember guys these are bloody launch games, just look at the Xbox360 launch games, the graphics weren't exactly mind blowing.

Give the developers sometime.

Plus, I think next-gen is more to do with AI than graphics and hopefully if Wii doesn't have amazing graphics to wow people then hopefully the AI can or whatever :P

[Aimless]

[A]fter seeing some footage of PS3 games today I feel that it is ridiculous to say immensely improved graphics do not evolve video games.
Were you watching Devil May Cry 4? The new Metal Gear Solid? Oh, perhaps Gran Turismo HD? Evolution as it happens, presented in True Real-Time HD.

Yeah, I'm being facetious*, but whilst I'm sure those titles will be great continuations of established franchises that's all they are, the same games we've been playing for years. Graphics are getting 'better', sure, but how does that affect the actual games? The 360 has been out for almost a year now, and I think Dead Rising is the first game I've played where the console's power has been used to do something that was previously restricted by hardware limitations.

Now I know what you're going to say: "Mario and Zelda are the same old franchises too!" Yes, that's quite true, but look how they're changing already due to the added functionality of the Wiimote. Zelda isn't really a 'proper' Wii title as it wasn't built from the ground up with the remote in mind, but already, in a launch day title, you'll be doing something you've never done before, playing a familiar game in a whole new way.

No matter how pretty it is, Devil May Cry 4 will be uncannily like its predecessors. That in itself is no bad thing — the series' fans will certainly enjoy it — but where exactly is it taking us? The games will keep on being tweaked, the graphics will keep on getting more spangly... and development prices will continue to rise, code shops will continue to shut down, and the apathy amongst gamers treading water in a stagnant pastime will become more vocal.

I'm not saying you're not a 'real gamer' if you don't like the Wii or how its games look — it could all turn out to be one huge failure for all I know — but I do think you should appreciate the path Nintendo is headed down. The DS is ostensibly paving the way towards a wider, more diverse market, and when that's grown — when the industry doesn't look to be burying its head in the sand as it flatlines — maybe then we can go back to having technological arms races again. In the meantime, I think I'll be happily twatting Moblins with a pretend sword.

*Well, insofar as this discussion is 'serious' to begin with.

[SpinesN]

Then no. There's no way Wii could have graphics like that. I don't think it's physically possible.
Didn't see this one before but if that's the case please join us in the wii hardware thread ;)

[Jordan]

Remember guys these are bloody launch games, just look at the Xbox360 launch games, the graphics weren't exactly mind blowing.



PGR3?
That game still looks fantastic. And it only uses 1/3 of the 360's graphics :3

[Matias]

PGR3?
That game still looks fantastic. And it only uses 1/3 of the 360's graphics :3

Better graphics = Evolution

New ways to play = Revolution

Neither's better or worse.

This argument about graphics over gameplay has been going on for too long. :horse:

Just buy whatever you think will make you pick up the controller more. Nothing else really matters.

[Hero-of-Time]

Graphics are important. But Processing power isn't nessicarly important. Give me Killer 7 over Perfect Dark Zero. Eternal Darkness over REmake. (I know a lot of people won't agree with me on the 2nd one.) But the point I am trying to make is graphics are important but its about style to of course style and power mixing is when it really goes mental. Res 4 Ocarina Halo etc.

Just had to pop in this topic and say excellent post!

I can honestly say I never pick graphics over gameplay, if I did I would have got a PSP instead of a DS.

The 360 has been out for almost a year now, and I think Dead Rising is the first game I've played where the console's power has been used to do something that was previously restricted by hardware limitations.


No matter how pretty it is, Devil May Cry 4 will be uncannily like its predecessors. That in itself is no bad thing — the series' fans will certainly enjoy it — but where exactly is it taking us? The games will keep on being tweaked, the graphics will keep on getting more spangly... and development prices will continue to rise, code shops will continue to shut down, and the apathy amongst gamers treading water in a stagnant pastime will become more vocal.

In the meantime, I think I'll be happily twatting Moblins with a pretend sword.



I agree with all of the above.

[Stocka]

This argument about graphics over gameplay has been going on for too long. :horse:
I am not arguing that graphics is more important than gameplay ffs, I'm stressing how people that think a massive jump in visuals won't evolve video games is so so wrong.

[ZeldaFreak]

*Looks at Twilight Princess, Smash Bros. Red Steel, Prime 3 and Excite Truck screens* :rolleyes:

Twilight Princess is the same graphics as cube game,
Smash Bros well we carn't comment because that was an FMV they threw together for a trailer
Red Steel well let me just say I have seen better looking games on the xbox early on in its life cycle since the wii is supposed to be 2-3 times as powerful as the cube.
Excite Truck looks very grainy from everything I have seen

[Phube]

White Knight Story Looks fantasic!

Yes, but my God doesn't it look BORING!!! :zzz:

[Bluejay]

Admittedly, some games look pretty weak but if games can match Twilight Princess and Resi 4 then thats good enough for me.

[fex]

Art Direction > Graphics
________
The Cigar Boss (http://thecigarboss.com/)

[Teppo Holmqvist]

PGR3?That game still looks fantastic.

I didn't find PGR3 impressive at all. Some subtle additions to details there and there, but still pretty much do-able on original Xbox. And when you add choppy framerate on top of that...

[Matias]

Yes, but my God doesn't it look BORING!!! :zzz:

I totally thought the same thing about Bioshock when i saw the latest video for it.

The game looks great but it looks boring. And the guy commenting on it was making every little detail into a big deal when it so isn't.

OMG i just sprayed the some guy with some red stuff that makes the other guy think its me, an they'll kill each other and i can go do somthing else... :hmm:

[JetSetWilly]

For some reason they don't see them as games with good graphics.

Wii Zelda has Cube graphics. Miyamoto did not let the dev team spend time polishing up the graphics for the Wii version: http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/726/726749p1.html

I think the point is that Nintendo have skewed things too far in one direction. I don't think that the Wii controller is the be-all and end-all of a gameplay experience. It's the whole package. Graphics alone do not make a great game, but a great game is even better if it has great graphics. By the same token a game does not instantly become great solely because it uses the Wii controller.

[Matias]

Wii Zelda has Cube graphics. Miyamoto did not let the dev team spend time polishing up the graphics for the Wii version:

I think the point is that Nintendo have skewed things too far in one direction. I don't think that the Wii controller is the be-all and end-all of a gameplay experience. It's the whole package. Graphics alone do not make a great game, but a great game is even better if it has great graphics. By the same token a game does not instantly become great solely because it uses the Wii controller.

People like you don't deserve to play games like Zelda: TP.

[JetSetWilly]

People like you don't deserve to play games like Zelda: TP.

What nonsense.

[McMad]

What nonsense.

I agree.

The whole point of this discussion is very true, Videogame's main focus is gameplay and when the game play is good you've nearly got a great game, but graphics are the second most important factor.

I don't mind playing games with graphics similar to the graphics from this generation because many games from this generation still look very good to this day.

The problem is the Wii is too expensive for something that only offers a new controller and barely any graphical improvement over consoles that were released 5 years before it.

[Nintendork]

Graphics were important, we've plateued though.. they become less and less important with every game release. Design is more important.. and when developpers don't have to have such collosal teams working on visuals they can oversee the design more so.

The Wii is going to be like when the PSone came out for me.. simple games, new concepts.. pretty good graphics.

[The Peeps]

I think the gamecube graphics are fine. I really wouldn't mind if all games from now looked like that. But that's not to say I don't still want improved graphics, I'm just saying that they're not neccessary to make a game good. As many are saying, I go for gameplay over graphics any day but nice graphics are always a good bonus on top of a fantastic game.

[Pit-Jr]

so all day yesterday, im viewing all these gorgeous PS3 games with jealousy and thinking wow Nintendo really dropped the ball.

But then i remembered i was similarly amazed when i saw GC trailers before its launch...PS1 and N64 screens before theyre respective launches...in short, the wow factor never lasts

Face it, after the initial amazement of the PS3 visuals wears off a year into its life, we'll be back on the net, looking for next-next gen mock-ups

As for Nintendo, i think they recognize this truth,
now they need to quit talking 'new generation' and start delivering. Dozens of ''mini-game compilation'' titles is not new generation.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

The cars in PGR2 compromised of just over 10,000 polygons each, the cars in PGR3 consist of upto 105,000 polygons, more then a 10-fold increase.

Thank you, but technical blather doesn't affect me at all, and I know I know exactly how many polygons Bizarre Creations touted PGR 3's cars to have. Unfortunately, when you were actually driving, PGR 3 didn't look that much different from PGR 2. Only major advantage it had over PGR 2 was cockpit view, and that was pretty much unplayable (it was just so damn hard to see out sometimes).

[Sarka]

QFT.

Graphics are important, but when I say graphics I don't mean realism, I mean art style. Twilight princess has a brilliant manga feel to it, wind waker was a beautiful game. Thats what makes the graphics of those games immersive.

I think the argument is more about the developers than the wii itself. The wii has enough power to warrant wonderful graphical styles for games, but it appears that some developers haven't bothered to make the game look as pretty as it could.

Yes, we all know the wii would be far better if it had ps3 graphics as well as the innovative controls...but for now its either one or the other, and I choose controls.

I 100% agree with you. Another thing, this White Knight Stoy looks nice - but I always would prefer playing Paper Mario or TWW instead of this. I can see this (well, not quite) in higher definition by looking outside. I want VG's to capture my imagination and beautiful cel shaded or cool art styles (Mario Galaxy's shininess appeals to me big time!) win it for me everytime - and Nintendo usually have really nice art styles.

I have never cared if someone has said "look at those kick ass water effects!" as I wouldn't mind if it was a big pool of blue with some waves in it. It really doesn't bother me at all.

[JetSetWilly]

I think it's also about what's appropriate for the genre. The trailers for MGS4 look incredible. Kojima needs the horsepower that the PS3 gives him in order to deliver the visual feast that is expected of him. It doesn't instantly mean MGS4 is a great game to play but the audience expectation of MG games is that each iteration is even more of a visual treat than the last. I don't think there'd be nearly as much hype about that game if it had PS2 visuals.

In her interview with Destructoid on gonintendo Perrin Kaplan said that the other next-gen consoles have more power than the casual gamer/non-gamer needs in order to enjoy video-games. I think that's a very revealing quote of where Nintendo wants to head.

EDIT: dabookerman speaks the truth. Excellent post.

[gorrit]

Yeah sure, graphics are important, but are they so important?

The best looking PS1 title according to me? Legend of Mana, it's a pure beauty, and that's only becouse of it's great art, not any technical thingamajiggys with 10 gazillion polygons. The best looking Gamecube games? Sure, RE4 is there, but it's not only it's technical greatness, it's very much becouse of it's art direction (which fits the techical style perfect) but it's also Killer7, which almost lives only on style. Then there is Wind Waker, which sure is a technical masterpiece but also a game with a great style and art. Graphics are important, but there are alot more to graphics then amazing technical stuff, and the things that last, it's the style, the design, the art direction, not the technical mumbojumbo.

[zora_prime]

the next N console will support HD and I think up to 1080 easily. i guess next N console will be the power of ps3 maybe slightly supped up, and you can see ps3 already preparing for 2xhdmi maybe even hd surround (3x1080) in later titles.

but graphics are near photo-realism and once they reach it there's no where to go from there, and N is going towards it, but at a slower pace. once the best graphics are achieved then the only direction in gaming is gameplay (motion sensing, vibration feedback), maybe stereoscopics (;P), better physics and sound, but Sony is wrong to jump so quick toward "teh best graph"

sience advances at a slower pace than technology <--- that's a fact

[Pit-Jr]

Regarding HD, i was under the impression that Nintendo took that out so they could achieve next gen graphics in SD. Seems i was wrong, and frankly the only place ive seen their processors being used in an impressive way is their fucking photo viewer.


I want VG's to capture my imagination and beautiful cel shaded or cool art styles


Those posts combined sum up my thoughts on the Wii. It CAN be an awesome machine if Nintendo and 3rd parties will assert some quality control.

I was under the impression that Nintendo was far more prepared for the Wii launch than the GC one, yet GC got Luigi's Mansion on Day 1, one of the the best-looking AND best playing games on GC to date. I look forward to 2007 for some real Wii games

[Nintendork]

Why look forward to it? We've seen Mario Galaxy.. that looks the tits, it's photogenic, full of ideas and the posterboy for Nintendo.

[ZeldaFreak]

I think were forgetting something here its the way game developers design there games, e.g N3(Ninety Nine Nights) sure it looks resonable but the AI is the pits the story is utter crap but the graphics are pretty.

Now we have the opposite end of the spectrum where we have fantasic designed games but not the decent graphics to emerse you in to the story line, eternal darkness was for me the greatest example of this.

Nintendo should of allowed a slighty easier development system whereby they could of created great looking games, like Nintendo could of created a development tool similiar to that of the unreal engine idea- but put it so the bar was set in the middle of the systems graphic capabilities so the graphics could improve over time but have a far more balanced game system especially for that £180, with a demo game called Wii Sports. So 3rd part titles and even there own looked more 'New' next gen

[JetSetWilly]

dabookerman - I'm not sure I follow your response to my post. I agree with it, but I don't think I get what you don't like about what I said about MGS4.

Someone posted earlier to say that graphics lose their wow factor quickly. That's true enough, but the Wii controller is not immune to the same effect. When the next Zelda comes and it is developed for the Wii from the ground up people will expect it to look better than TP. Else what new ground can it cover? In TP you can shake the controller to swing the sword. In the next Zelda the novelty of that will be gone.

[Pit-Jr]

Why look forward to it? We've seen Mario Galaxy.. that looks the tits, it's photogenic, full of ideas and the posterboy for Nintendo.

thats also 1 game. Im not buying the Wii just to play Mario Galaxy. Its great that Nintendo can adapt old characters to the Wii-mote , but how about adapting the Wii-mote to new characters instead huh

[assofaman]

The current Wii games aren't necessarily indicative of the sorts of graphics well see on Wii for the duration of its life. The current games having less than spectacular graphics is in part due to Nintendo being unorganised on releasing the final dev kits and specifications of the console, leaving third parties having to assume the true power of the console and base their games on the console knowledge they had at the time which prior to a couple of months ago was rather limited. The graphics will improve over time as developers become accustomed to the console and adequate standards are reinforced to filter out sub par efforts. For now though, don't worry so much about how the games look and enjoy the "FRESH" experience that Wii will provide for us.

[Nintendork]

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2006/09/gow_wru_headshot.gif

[demonmike04]

Graphics are currently shameful. Theres like what, no games that use the Wii capabilities?
Ok maybe I was too strong saying none of them, but theres not much of an advancement as they originally said. Mario galaxy looks bloody stunning, but its just a little advancement in the area's graphics compared to what we saw in Sunshine. Red steel looks kinda better too, the big advancement we saw was in the early demo with the glass shattering and the water pouring and splashing.

Zelda: Just cube graphics. Its just cube graphics and it has the most amazing graphics currently for the wii in my opinion. Thats shameful. I've lost confidence that the games will look good like they said, it may be launch, but why has it downgraded from the cube?

Graphics make a game look more appealing, and its eye candy. We love it. We like feeling we're in the sorroundings, we like the environment, the slight realism astounds us. But the Wii has gone to shit. Developers are being lazy pouring these half assed games into pre-order lists, and this will be Nintendo's downfall.

Because although these games have gameplay and shit, most are basic idea's with shite graphics and nobody is going to want to buy them. Nobody buys your game on that system, what do you do? Go support another system. Nintendo loses a developer. It wont be Nintendo's fault, but they have spent too long convincing developers to support it, that they havent convinced developers to push the system to see what wonderful games they can produce which will appeal to us.

All the effort i've seen is from Nintendo and Ubisoft. Everything else is a slight advancement over N64. Put your game on the virtual console, dont waste shelf space taking up games we want to buy.

[Konfucius]

Graphics certainly aren't the most important part, they only make for a great look but gameplay is most important because in the end you won't complete a game because you like the graphics so much.

But graphics will make a lasting impression. When you first saw the great Deku tree in OoT or Hyrule field it made an impression on you because you never saw something like this before.
I didn't play OoT back on the N64 and while it was a lot of fun the graphics looked a bit poor for me.
When I played Attack on the Death Star in Rogue Leader I was stunned how it could accurately recreate the look of the film.
Then in WW I was completely blown away by the ocean and for instance the tower of Gods.

Whenever I think of that games these things come to mind and I get a nice nostalgic feeling.
Now if the Wii will offer GC-like graphics there'll be (almost) nothing technically impressive that will let you stare at the screen in awe because any mid-range PC and of course the other consoles will outshine it graphically by far.

Sure the Wii will still be very much fun to play and offer good games but it's natural to want the best and the best would be great gameplay and great graphics.

[Shino]

There is nothing we can say to change this, yes PS3 games look good, and most third party games look like shit on Wii, non of us here has played with it so we can't say that the gameplay is so good that graphics don't matter, just like we judge people we start by judging it's appearance.

Most games are ports, even Mario Galaxy, and games like Red Steel had less than an year to be developed. And If Zelda is the best the GameCube has to offer, than we can surely expect much better on the Wii, similar to these White Knights stuff.

Just like the DS, I expect the Wii to prove it self later in its life.

Remember that the N64 had a innovative controller and the best graphics avaible at it's time, and it still "floped".

[Hellfire]

The way I see it is: if a game has gorgeous graphics and bad gameplay it would be stupid to play it, if a game has amazing gameplay and bad graphics it would be stupid not to play it, ergo graphics are a nice complement to the game, but not what I lose sleep over.

[pedrocasilva]

PGR3 could be done on the Xbox, but it would look exactly the same as PGR2. The cars in PGR2 compromised of just over 10,000 polygons each, the cars in PGR3 consist of upto 105,000 polygons, more then a 10-fold increase. Many of the gameplay features also wouldn't have been able to make the transition (Gotham TV) etc..

Heck, If you're going to take that stance, Gears of War and Metal Gear Solid 4 could have been done on the XB/PS2 in some form or another.Is that so...

Messing with fanboys aside...^
To put things into perpective, the T-REX in the original Jurassic Park had 75,000 polys... Yup, anyone that says the 360 isn't nex gen needs to get thier heads checked.
To also put things in perspective, a star destroyer in Rogue Leader for GameCube had 125,000 polys...and there were TWO of them at the end of the game along with tons of other models onscreen.

Does that mean a GameCube launch game is next-gen? No, and neither is PGR3 to me, until they show how many polys are in that gorgeous enviroment onscreen at once.

That, and we need to know if this is an in-game count, or just for the showroom, and how many cars can be shown onscreen in a race before the framerate crawls to hell.

This is being REALISTIC regarding developer/publisher hype. And don't get me wrong, I'm a PGR fanboy to tell the truth (it's the spritual successor to MSR on Dreamcast), I just know when to see things for what they are.

Hopefully everyone else here will see that too- a next-gen console should be able to do a helluva lot more than 96k character/car models.

I was waiting for you to say that. The star destroyers were mostly in space where there was less environmental geometry.

And I was waiting for you to say that.

Star Destroyers are against a starfield, that much is true. However, there are also OTHER ships (50+ TIES onscreen at once plus Star Destroyers, player craft, and Rebel Frigates), and all sorts of effects (DOT3 bumpmapping, dynamic lighting, and in the Rebel Strike version, light scattering/diffusion).

Not saying that PGR3 doesn't do much more in its environments, but Rogue Leader's backgrounds, though seemingly static, have alot more going on than you think.

Personally, as much as I like PGR, I don't think I'll get PGR3 just yet during launch. I've enough time as it is playing the original PGR, and I avoided PGR2 because the excellent Rallisport and Rallisport 2 came in as great diversions.Source: http://forums.g4tv.com/messageview.cfm?catid=8&threadid=505569&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=arc&STARTPAGE=2

Yeah, but how many. Right now with the cars alone PGR3 has triple the ammount of polys.

Since when is 96,000 three times more than 120,000 polys?

How many polys are those tie fighters pushing?

The models range from 6-10,000 polys, depending on the angle of the camera- which is the same issue with the cars of PGR3, or any other game for that matter.

THEN, there are player craft, which are constructed of 18,000 polys, Millinium Falcon is over 20,000 polys.

THEN, there are the Frigate stations (up to 3) and they range from 30-45,000 polys, again depending on the camera angle/LOD.

Enough to make up the 550,000+ polygons PGR3 is pushing before you add in the actual city and spectators?

550,000 polys at 30fps is only 16 million polys sec, and with Rogue Leader doing more than that in smaller stages (and even more on those stages using the Rebel Strike engine), it's safe to say that this number is eclipsed in that game.

whatever PGR is doing per frame, it'd better be more than 2 million polys if it's going to be considered next-gen technically.

And Cloudsoul, I wouldn't directly compare any of the MSR/PGR series to Gran Turismo. That series has always been (at the core) more arcade-like in nature, with more focus on stunt points (Kudos) than shaving microseconds off your previous time. Source: http://forums.g4tv.com/messageview.cfm?catid=8&threadid=505569&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=arc&STARTPAGE=3

Wii could probably push PGR3 rather easily, I might add.

[Stefkov]

There is nothing we can say to change this, yes PS3 games look good, and most third party games look like shit on Wii, non of us here has played with it so we can't say that the gameplay is so good that graphics don't matter, just like we judge people we start by judging it's appearance.

Most games are ports, even Mario Galaxy, and games like Red Steel had less than an year to be developed. And If Zelda is the best the GameCube has to offer, than we can surely expect much better on the Wii, similar to these White Knights stuff.

Just like the DS, I expect the Wii to prove it self later in its life.

Remember that the N64 had a innovative controller and the best graphics avaible at it's time, and it still "floped".
I wholey agree there.
I remember in each generation im sure the weakest console has won. NES, SNES, Playstation, Playstation 2, and then the DS is winning.
It seems that games really do play a big role in the win or loss of a console.
NES and SNes had loads of games cos they was the first of their kind-ish. Then the playstation with their CDs got more developers, then the playstation 2 because of the playstations success.
The ds has so many more games for it than the psp i believe.
The Wii support is growing and growing. with the VC aswell.
Graphics play a major role in games, i do believe. Mario Galaxy and Zelda IMO rank up nicely with Say oblivion in my books. Zelda looks immense, and to think that the GC could do those graphics. If the GC had good support then i think it would have been used to the max, and we would have been seeing games like Zelda last gen at least a couple years ago.
I dont know what im ranting about.....

[Dante]

DMC4 runs at 100fps! :shock:

"By using new techniques, we have become able to truly express light, shadow, etc. We are now able to draw 100 frames every second and display incredibly smooth imagery as a result of the PS3"

Can TV's run at 100fps?

Edit: Nevermind was a typo. O_o

[Shyguy]

ok i cant really be arsed reading most of this topic. what what the majoraty mean Stoka... is that if graphics were imporved over last gen, it wouldnt have the same effect from before that.

i mean if you look at games like Halo 2 and Residen Evil 4 (many more im sure)

but to be honest... if graphics were better than those games... i wouldnt really give a crap... i wouldnt buy a game if they have imporved visuals over gameplay. which is why people turn to Wii... it still has fantastic graphics.. looking at MP3 and SMG

and most of us wouldnt really be bothered if they were better than that

all this HD mumbo jumbo stuff is crap.. i havea friend with a 360... playing Dead Rising on a 15" TV in his room

doesnt mean i dont like the game, i think Dead Rising is amazing but i wouldnt care if it was on a 50" HDTV or not.. i have a 19" Monitor on my PC and i can get better Resolutions than a PS3 with a Geforce 6600

[fatnickc]

Graphics are important, but they don't tend to 'win' a game for me. I would sometimes prefer nicely drawn 2D graphics to 3D, but it looks like 2D is a dying art.

[DCK]

Ok, when people say 'graphics are not important' they mean that graphics don't make a succesful game. It's exaggerating, but accept it.

Of course graphics matter, but the Wii is doing fine for me. Games don't look like shit anyway, as most spammers try to make it seem. The Wii loses it to the 360 and PS3, but I don't care.

[mcj metroid]

I'm sure the PS3 looks just fine in SD most. And as for the price, remember it's got a brand new shiny Blu-ray player with it, that does raise the price a bit.
As for this White Knight Story, I'm impressed. Very impressed. I guess this is the PS3's Elder Scrolls IV. But Heavenly Sword still kicks total arse (and is actually the title I'm most anticipating); it's PoP on steroids.
People dont want that stupid unproven player.People will argue that the ps2 MADE the dvd but dvd players were around before then.
Id bet my life that this format will fail.its my opinion

[Fresh]

Graphics are important, but they don't tend to 'win' a game for me. I would sometimes prefer nicely drawn 2D graphics to 3D, but it looks like 2D is a dying art.

^^ i agree, If the game is made well, has a decent storyline ect. And as long as it has a good finish i dont realy care about graphics. Look at Trauma Centre, its not the most visually amzing game but the character art is very nice.

[Emasher]

all i care about grafics is they are close just under standard. for instance the more recent zelda games 2d and 3d the characers have moved alot smother

thats probably why didn't care for the n64 games.

don't get my wrong grafics arn't that importat.

[Blue_Ninja0]

Graphics are important, but they don't tend to 'win' a game for me. I would sometimes prefer nicely drawn 2D graphics to 3D, but it looks like 2D is a dying art.

Yeah, i don't get it... Why don't we get beatifull 2D games? With the power of any of the consoles we could get 2D games with amazing, seizures inducing visuals and billions of sprites/particles being displayed at any given time. Of course we would need great gameplay to back that up, or it would be useless. But for that we have Metroid 2D, Castlevania 2D, Sonic 2D, Super Mario 2D or any 2D fighter you can think about. They would be cheap to develop too.

[McMad]

don't get my wrong grafics arn't that importat.

But spelling and good grammar is. :)

[Nintenchris]

I havent realy read much in this thread so im just gonna post my opinions on this issue.
Right IMO graphics do and dont matter, it all depends on what type of game that it is. First off lets take Super monkey ball for an example... its graphics have never been great or realistic because its the sort of fun game that doesnt realy need them for the player to have fun playing.

Next lets take Zelda for an example OOT was a great game, at the time the graphics where awesome and there was a real sense of immersion... you felt like you where link taking on the world. This sort of immersion suits this sort of game because you need to feel like your realy there kickin some arse or doing some fishing. So even tho OOT had great graphics at the time it wasnt just the graphics that realy immersed the player... it was the true diversity of gameplay, like i said you could be off kicking some ass or fishing or just riding Epona round Hyrule field... this all added to the feeling of being link.

Anyway enought of my rambling, basicly IMO graphics are a small small part of what makes a game truely great, Yeah some games benefit from better graphics but some dont need better graphics too be fun... because thats why we play games right... to have fun!

[Dilli Gee]

Good graphics doesn't mean photo-realism. The Incredibles looks far from realistic, but it has better graphics than Toy Story.

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

Did any of your favourite games become favourite because of teh graphics?

I tink not!

[Dilli Gee]

Did any of your favourite games become favourite because of the graphics? I think not!
I'd like to say no, but that's not true.

Pilotwings 64 was really only for the graphics, same with Rogue Leader on the GC. Resi 4 too.

[thomaschung]

what's the point people saying gameplay is the most important thing? we all know and agree to that. but this does not mean that graphics should have been sacrificed.

the issue is what we've seen with the graphics just aint good enough. i will not buy some games because of their graphics. the new screenshots of Far Cry Vengence is one such example. I really hope they fix that as i was really looking forward to it, but if it don't look better than xbox version i won't bother.

for the price the Wii should be more powerful.

[pedrocasilva]

I'd like to say no, but that's not true.

Pilotwings 64 was really only for the graphics, same with Rogue Leader on the GC. Resi 4 too.Pilotwings was not even close of having the best graphics on N64.

Rogue leader is a good game, despite that the graphics might be his biggest selling factor... and RE4 was a great game no matter how you see it, graphics wouldn't cut it alone...

Now, there's the topic of this thread, are graphics important for, say RE4? yes they are, why? because they are what immerses you. Graphics have a function in there, you won't jump you chair nowadays with blocky blood spilling from RE DS, you won't be in awe in a Final Fantasy game when two characters kiss each other and all you can see is a handful of untextured polygons getting closer.

But think about it, doesn't it reach a point when a developer can express himself no matter what the platform is?

Didn't it happened this generation? I mean... PS2 is so inferior yet there are good games in there, even if we take them graphically into comparison.

RE4 on PS2 is a good example here, everything was downgraded, leon had half it's original polygons, textures were converted from 24 bit to 8 bit and half the resolution, bump mapping, volumetric fog, light scattering was scrapped, etc... in the end the PS2 version had no less than about 6 times less lightning effects going on... did it screw up the game?

Ironically, the biggest drawback in the game... wasn't the graphics or the console capabilities, it was the controller, due to Sony manufacturing theirs with cheap materials. Capcom actually had to tone down the 8-level sentivity on the joysticks to the point where it appeared that they weren't analog, more like a D-pad. This was all due to the controller, otherwise the port would be every bit as good gameplay-wise as it's "older brother".

Now, OoT was not possible on Psone, it would be like giving two steps in hyrule field and a *loading* screen appearing, and a few seconds later a few trees pop up in that direction, that would be so unmanegeable that would really damage the gameplay, hence it would simply not be possible, it would be best to do a RPG in the vein of FF7.

This is a case where lack of technology compromises the experience, graphics serve the purpose of allowing such things, but seriously that doesn't hold true today.

Knowing that Gears of War "style" was inspired by RE4... Will It's graphical diference immerse me further? seriously, I think that if the controls were to be worse I'd be less imersed when I already experienced something as good as RE4.

And in the end, does it make RE4 look bad? IMO... hell no.

There's no game genre (type of gameplay) possible on a next gen console that isn't possible on curent gen, with a equivalent controller.

Wii is actually breaking loose from that, so the one to offer a diferent (and better) experience this time might be it, and all that with less graphic-muscle.You're so quick to post all these "ZOMG FACTOR-FIVE-POLYGON-MAPPING", you dont even bother properly reading my post. Honestly, what are you on about? Were did I mention the GCN? The Wii? What I was saying is that the Xbox could not run PGR3 with all the bells-and-whistles attached.

Well until your theory is put in practise and PGR3 is made to run on the Wii, Im going to ignore your statement. The Wii could not handle a 100%-faithful port of PGR3 due to obvious reasons, cant run in 600p. :grin:

Yeah, thats all I got.Yes, you didn't refer GC or Wii, but you did imply that PGR3 was such a big improvement over last gen. And that if we go that way most games would be possible on current generation with serious downgrades.

Although I do agree with that, I don't see PGR3 as such a "big improvement" at all.

You're quite right though. The correction for the Wii would be PGR3-like visuals in 480p ;)

But... it's a Xbox 360 early title. Xbox couldn't run it, but it is by no means a benchmark of what X360 can do.

[critter171]

they grapchis for wii are fine. if you dont like the grapchis go to pc.

:bouncy:

what's the point people saying gameplay is the most important thing? we all know and agree to that. but this does not mean that graphics should have been sacrificed.

the issue is what we've seen with the graphics just aint good enough. i will not buy some games because of their graphics. the new screenshots of Far Cry Vengence is one such example. I really hope they fix that as i was really looking forward to it, but if it don't look better than xbox version i won't bother.

for the price the Wii should be more powerful.

:indeed:


ok for infomation they have more than 60 people working on the title. first screen shots of wii before two moths are up?

please stop using far cry grapchis will get better.
wii is morepowerful than xbox

[fukudasolokomalakikenanze]

Graphics are a good marketing tool. Wiis graphics hopefully will get better over time.

[Stocka]

Did any of your favourite games become favourite because of teh graphics?

I tink not!
The beauty of Shenmue's visuals certainly improved the whole experience significantly, so yes.

[pedrocasilva]

The beauty of Shenmue's visuals certainly improved the whole experience significantly, so yes.That beauty is translated into attention to detail and believable atmosphere, but dreamcast isn't that powerful anymore, thus while it's still beautiful it's not necessarily impressive technically, not a benchmark by todays standards, what holds it together is the art direction amongst other things.

Graphics capacity is just a tool not what makes (or breaks) a game (or console).

Said this, I'd say Wii can do a fair amount of these (graphics).

[Raven]

You know whats lots of fun? Having two threads of exactly the same arguements going simultaneously!
http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9395

[Hellfire]

I'd like to say no, but that's not true.

Pilotwings 64 was really only for the graphics, same with Rogue Leader on the GC. Resi 4 too.

I really don't like you. Sorry, just needed to get this out of my chest, but you sure say some stupid things.
I'm too agressive, I'm hanging over at NeoGaf too much.

[KKOB]

I'd like to say no, but that's not true.

Pilotwings 64 was really only for the graphics, same with Rogue Leader on the GC. Resi 4 too.

just no- Resi 4is awesome cos of the satisfaction of killing things and firing big guns and having a fun lil story

[The Bard]

I really don't like you. Sorry, just needed to get this out of my chest, but you sure say some stupid things.
I'm too agressive, I'm hanging over at NeoGaf too much.

I think I'm gonna have to agree on that one. What a load of bullshit, if you're going to dismiss Resi 4, as being "just for the graphics" then you have no business playing videogames. Rogue Squadron 2, was quite good aswell, but yeah, that did depend on the graphics a little bit, that's not to say it wasn't a fun game (Rogue Squadron 3, was just a pile of shit though).

[Fierce_LiNk]

When it comes to Rogue Leader, there was much, much more to it than just the way everything looked. I value the sound/music more in that game than i do the graphics. The presentation is also fantastic, too.

[Dilli Gee]

I think I'm gonna have to agree on that one. What a load of bullshit, if you're going to dismiss Resi 4, as being "just for the graphics" then you have no business playing videogames. Rogue Squadron 2, was quite good aswell, but yeah, that did depend on the graphics a little bit, that's not to say it wasn't a fun game (Rogue Squadron 3, was just a pile of shit though).
He asked me if I ever bought a game just for the graphics, I said I have and gave 3 Nintendo examples.

[Beduin]

I'd like to say no, but that's not true.

Pilotwings 64 was really only for the graphics, same with Rogue Leader on the GC. Resi 4 too.

LMAO, you played RE4 just for the graphics ? RE has arguably the best story in a videogame series ever and you play it because its eyecandy?

I will start to develop games now, Stunning graphics but with no sound, crap control and absolutley no story at all. I know that i would be guaranteed atleast one sold copy

[Kurtle Squad]

I'd like to say no, but that's not true.

Pilotwings 64 was really only for the graphics, same with Rogue Leader on the GC. Resi 4 too.

From your 'quote': Teh counts as a word, and tink would be said by the Irish n my gf n people :heh:

[DCK]

Graphics can be a factor in buying a game sure, but really Dilli Gee, I don't believe you bought those games because of the graphics alone.

Really, the whole graphics discussion is basically a 'my **** is bigger than yours' flame war between the fan groups. Marketing wise it doesn't really matter and game experience wise the graphics are becoming lesser and lesser important. Go ahead and discuss it some more. I don't have to compensate anything though so I'll pass.

[ShadowV7]

He asked me if I ever bought a game just for the graphics, I said I have and gave 3 Nintendo examples.

So if there was a Barbie game with astounding graphics,you would get it?

[DCK]

You can't be serious Dilli Gee. Graphics interest you in a game on first sight only, you don't buy purely on graphics. Never.

[Phube]

You can't be serious Dilli Gee. Graphics interest you in a game on first sight only, you don't buy purely on graphics. Never.

Of cause you do!! That's why I got Tetris for my Gameboy (original)!! :) :P

[system_error]

You can't be serious Dilli Gee. Graphics interest you in a game on first sight only, you don't buy purely on graphics. Never.

I would not but I wouldn't buy a game with excellent gameplay (how you define that I don't know) and bad grahpics neither.


Great gameplay + bad graphics = mediocre game
Great graphics + boring gameplay = mediocre game

[Dilli Gee]

Same as above. Unless the Barbie game had actual good gameplay and story, I would consider buying it.

But if it's a Barbie game with fantastic graphics and excellent gameplay, then I would rent it or buy it (for my sister ;)) .

Graphics can be a factor in buying a game sure, but really Dilli Gee, I don't believe you bought those games because of the graphics alone.
It's not so much I bought them just for the graphics, more like they're the nicest looking (good rated) titles on the system, and it made me want to buy them more.

When I got my N64 in 1999/2000, I had a choice from a couple of games. I got Zelda for the gameplay, and Pilotwings basically because it looked impressive with the scenery and stuff.

With Rogue Leader, I wanted a game that would "test" my cube out, so I chose a bundle with the game. Otherwise I would have got Wave Racer.

As for Resi 4, I read it had "ground-breaking" graphics and good controls, so I got it. I was also told it was "action" rather than "horror". I couldn't care less about the storyline, it didn't have much to do with the other RE games.

I bought the remake of the original too, for similar reasons (of course that was flat out survival horror).

[Zero]

I said in another thread (cant remember which :p) graphics do come into account but i would rather a game had a good stroyline and game play rather than graphics.

For example, Grandia 2's graphics literally hurt to look at when I first played it but, I still found the game enjoyable and is now one of my favourites.

I agree with ShadowV7 and DCK. I would never buy a game just because it had good graphics.

[Shino]

So if there was a Barbie game with astounding graphics,you would get it?

Yes, Barbies are hot.

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060925.jpg

[gmanprime]

http://www.gameklip.com/v/1547

I must admit this is the first time I have ever felt myself drooling over a ps3.

[Hellfire]

http://www.gameklip.com/v/1547

I must admit this is the first time I have ever felt myself drooling over a ps3.

I feel you man, Level 5 rocks.

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

http://www.gameklip.com/v/1547

I must admit this is the first time I have ever felt myself drooling over a ps3.

I dont get it.

[Raven]

Great gameplay + bad graphics = mediocre game
Great graphics + boring gameplay = mediocre game

I do a heavy amount of maths in my degree, and I have to say that both of these equations are completely wrong!
It is the gameplay that matters! Graphics should have nothing to do with it!

Try playing a game like 'Secret of Mana' or 'Chrono Trigger'. The graphics in this game would be considered 'bad', but I still rate them as the best games I have ever played. And in saying that, I am more than likely to play these games again over Starfox Adventures.

Have you never played Kirbys Ghost Trap???
Amazing game! Very simple though.
Make the comparison between Mario64 and Mario Sunshine.

But in saying all of this, I'm going to make myself out to be a hypocrite and say that I do like pretty graphics!

I guess my main point is, that gameplay is essential.

[SpinesN]

I do a heavy amount of maths in my degree, and I have to say that both of these equations are completely wrong!
It is the gameplay that matters! Graphics should have nothing to do with it!

Try playing a game like 'Secret of Mana' or 'Chrono Trigger'. The graphics in this game would be considered 'bad', but I still rate them as the best games I have ever played. And in saying that, I am more than likely to play these games again over Starfox Adventures.

Have you never played Kirbys Ghost Trap???
Amazing game! Very simple though.
Make the comparison between Mario64 and Mario Sunshine.

But in saying all of this, I'm going to make myself out to be a hypocrite and say that I do like pretty graphics!

I guess my main point is, that gameplay is essential.
STFU! Trigger is beautiful! :p
No actually it really is. Even though it is limited to 2d sprites the art direction is wonderful. Sure some of the fancy "3d" effects (used for some spells) are simple geometric figures... I was going somewhere.... meh it's beautiful! :D

[Bigfoot]

I don't feel like reading through all of this shit, but I will post my opinion on this matter. Graphics now, won't ever look bad in the future, will you ever go back and play MGS3 or RE4 and say "Damn, I can't believe I thought these graphics were once good..."

Next generation graphics fail to impress me today, it just seems like that there just upping the polygons, I'm sorry but Zelda Twilite Princess looks more beautiful than 80% of "next gen" games, and its a gamecube game graphically. With Wii technology and up, the graphical horse power is enough to display the visual beauty of a game, but at this point, its more of the artistic point and how you handle that technology.

[gorrit]

Great gameplay + bad graphics = mediocre game
Great graphics + boring gameplay = mediocre game

What you seriously failed to include in your equation is that, great gameplay stand the test of time. Those games can and will be played for years to come, a couple of my friends who isn't really that much into games just bought a SNES and a couple of games, they've just completed the almost every level in Super Mario World and they think it's a blast. And now they've just bought Super Mario Allstars. Is it becouse the games have good graphics? No, not quite. It's just becouse they have great gameplay.

[Dilli Gee]

I dont get it.
The game starts with an aerial pan of the forest, then you see the characters come into frame, and everyone thought it was FMV. But then you realise you can actually move the characters around and you then are gobsmacked because what you thought was FMV is actual in-game graphics.

The gameplay looks awesome too, very FF.

What you seriously failed to include in your equation is that, great gameplay stand the test of time. Those games can and will be played for years to come, a couple of my friends who isn't really that much into games just bought a SNES and a couple of games, they've just completed the almost every level in Super Mario World and they think it's a blast. And now they've just bought Super Mario Allstars. Is it becouse the games have good graphics? No, not quite. It's just becouse they have great gameplay.
The games you listed are 2D graphics. They couldn't really get any better, at least on the 2D plane.

3D graphics can however, and titles like SM64 and even the original Zelda have awesome gameplay, but haven't stood the test of time as smoothly. Even on the DS (that's why many DS games are 2D rather than 3D).

Next generation graphics fail to impress me today, it just seems like that there just upping the polygons, I'm sorry but Zelda Twilite Princess looks more beautiful than 80% of "next gen" games, and its a gamecube game graphically.
Please name a few actual next generation titles that are worst graphically than Zelda TP, I honestly would like to know.

[Nintendork]

Rez, Electroplankton, Myst, Gran Turismo, Jet Set Radio.

I could think of more probably.. all of these were originally purchased for graphics alone.. I didn't care if the music was shit.. or if it controlled badly or had no story. It looked phat.

But as I have matured and money is more important in games I think game design is the primary emphasis of good graphics.. not the hardware.

*goes back to the Secret of Monkey Island*

[DCK]

That's bullshit. Mario 64, Ocarina of Time and whatever N64 or PSX or even Dreamcast game is mediocre because their graphics suck?

Why do play games at all? You play games for the fun in playing right? Not so you can gaze at the beauty of the graphics?

[mario114]

I play games for the fun, graphics are not the main thing I look for, but they can add a lot to a game. A game doesn't need to have a powerfull system to look nice, take wind waker, it looks amazing, and I am yet to see a game which I think the graphics look as good as it.

[gorrit]

The games you listed are 2D graphics. They couldn't really get any better, at least on the 2D plane.

3D graphics can however, and titles like SM64 and even the original Zelda have awesome gameplay, but haven't stood the test of time as smoothly. Even on the DS (that's why many DS games are 2D rather than 3D).

IMO, the main reason that many N64 games haven't stood the test of time as smoothly as some SNES titles is that the framerate is low. But yeah, I compare N64 with NES, and Gamecube with SNES, the Gamecube and SNES games usually have much more polish, less jerky framerates etc. But on that comment about the graphics really can't get any better on Super Mario World & Allstars, it's just that those graphics are simple and colourful, not trying to be realistic etc and the framerate is smooth. Are you telling me that for example Legend of Mana don't have better graphics than Super Mario World?
(but sure, you have to take in account for what they where aiming for with the graphics, and the SMW graphics where supposed to be like that, still, there are 2D games that look much better IMO)

I also have a theory about that 2D games (as in gameplay, not in graphics, so Ikaruga and New Super Mario Brothers counts in this case as 2D games) that they easier stand the test of time, partly becouse the instant wow-factor doesn't seem as important in 2D games as in 3D games (ie, big 3D views etc, or playing Halo for the first time becouse it seemed like a big world etc, that fades faster than thight gameplay, as in for example Street Fighter 2).

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

Resident Evil VS Remake

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/9751/resiorgsrd0.jpg http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/7880/resiremake2sah2.jpg



Remake VS Super Smash Bros
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/7880/resiremake2sah2.jpg http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/6310/ssbmeleesc1sww6.jpg

Nuff said!!1

[Owen]

Graphics are important in some games.

I think the Call Of Duty and Resident Evil series for example needs surperior graphics just to get that emotion across. The more realistic it looks the more immersed you are?

I mean...anything to make the game look as though your actually there and it's really happening is a bonus?

Some games don't need superior graphics though...I mean Smash Bros and Mario Party can still be 'fun' without superior graphics..there not exactly realistic games are they? So peoples minds aren't thinking about the way it looks.

Perhaps the more realistic and 'serious' the game is, the better the graphics should be?

My opinion of course, no-one else.

[Nintendork]

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[Owen]

Is that some sort of figure? Zombie? thing?

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

Its Samus. LOL.

[Stefkov]

It looks like breasts.
Anyway. I aggree with Owen. I mean mario kart doesnt have the best graphics in the world, but playing multiplayer at break and lunch in college with friends is a laugh, its great fun. Even tetris was great fun! look at those grapics, yeah bad example, but it goes to show graphics dont count for much in some games.

[Kurtle Squad]

Graphics are important in some games.

I think the Call Of Duty and Resident Evil series for example needs surperior graphics just to get that emotion across. The more realistic it looks the more immersed you are?

I mean...anything to make the game look as though your actually there and it's really happening is a bonus?

Some games don't need superior graphics though...I mean Smash Bros and Mario Party can still be 'fun' without superior graphics..there not exactly realistic games are they? So peoples minds aren't thinking about the way it looks.

Perhaps the more realistic and 'serious' the game is, the better the graphics should be?

My opinion of course, no-one else.

I agree; however, after a while, that affect wears off, the Wii has perfectly adequet graphical power to get that sort of thing across; having the same game on PS3 with better graphics wouldn't make THAT much difference to the immersion.

[mariosmentor]

Well nobody is disputing the fact that a great game does not have to have great graphics.
What they are disputing is the fact that nintendo has seemingly completely abandoned the idea that they need graphics at all, and at the price we are all presumably going to be paying we're getting an updated control system(which does look amazing but enough to warrent it as next gen?) and the ability to check the weather.

What they don't understand is that some games actually do need technically advanced graphics. Something that all the hardcore fanboys don't realise is that certain games just don't have much variation in gameplay at all.
for example. The next series of pro evolution soccer, gameplay is never very different but you'll bet they'll be aiming at improving the visuals so where does that leave us?
Losing any chance of the rights to a popular franchise - losing support - losing fans - gamecube situation(thats where nobody will develop and if they do its some piss poor platformer and the mass public ridicule it while all stocks are withdrawn from shelves except the one or two nintendo exlusives released every 6 months.)

Racing games? Mostly about graphical enchancements so if we get one racing game from a series that'll probably be it and it'll be poor in comparison to the competitors even if it does use the wiimote inovately (jimmy why would you want a wii for christmas? look at how good that same racing game looks for the xbox360 and its almost the same price.)

thats only a few, just to let you open your mind to the fact that in certain genre's gameplay only gos so far and then what? bye bye nintendo.
Most of you are hypocrites who would pounce on the first wii game that overpowered graphically any game on the ps3. If nintendo next generation became the most powerful machine would you all magically change your direction towards uber-graphics? Or would you all petition that every game on this uber machine be made with the least amount of polygons to preserve gameplay?

The jist is video games are constructed from a variety of elements including graphics and gameplay. And if any of these areas are lacking it takes away from the game as a whole. Not in a way that makes it unplayable or even bad but we still has to live with the fact that it is not best it could have been.

Now on the other hand zelda looks amazing, not because of stunning graphics but because they used the graphics to achieve a very attractive style and if all developers did this then i would be pleased but i know they won't. We'll get blocky basic crap on the major part and have to deal with it.

[Strange Cookie]

Here's my view:

Good graphics is a "nice to have".
Good gameplay is a "need to have".

I agree that graphics can enhance the gameplay-experience, but it's doesn't "make" it. Think the "Mardi Gras"-scene in Hitman: Blood Money. The amount of people onscreen is staggering! It really gives a sense of scale, but if the gameplay had sucked, no amount of graphical trickery would have saved that mission.

On the subject of style over polygons: think of Free Radical and the amazing job they did on the Timesplitters-series and Second Sight! Not very high on polygons but definitely high on style and animation!

The best game-experience I ever had was in Ocarine of Time, when I first had to behold a Hyrule in ruins after I arrived in the future. The lonely marketplace, the mumbling zombies, the flying castle, the darkness... It was relatively low-tech, but even today no amount of polygons, normal-mapping, self-shadowing or fancy shader has made a more memorable scene. Even to date it sends shivers up my spine...

I tried to make a point somewhere, but I lost myself halfway there. :wink:

[Dilli Gee]

My new point:

Games like Assassin's Creed have both great gameplay and physics, along with fantastic graphics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dKCCEFQkrQ).

Why can't Nintendo let us have both? Why does it have to be one or the other?

It seems Wii restricts the developers as they can have great gameplay, but are limited with the graphics. I don't think we'll ever see anything as good as Assassin's Creed on Wii, simply because of these restrictions.

[LazyBoy]

My new point:

Games like Assassin's Creed have both great gameplay and physics, along with fantastic graphics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dKCCEFQkrQ).

Why can't Nintendo let us have both? Why does it have to be one or the other?

Price? I thought that was pretty obvious.

[Patch]

What they don't understand is that some games actually do need technically advanced graphics. Something that all the hardcore fanboys don't realise is that certain games just don't have much variation in gameplay at all.
for example. The next series of pro evolution soccer, gameplay is never very different but you'll bet they'll be aiming at improving the visuals so where does that leave us?

In a world without by-the-numbers sequels hopefully.

[Dilli Gee]

Price? I thought that was pretty obvious.
I'm sure many people wouldn't mind spending that extra £20 on the system actually be graphically abled for a few years to come.

[c0Zm1c]

I'm sure many people wouldn't mind spending that extra £20 on the system actually be graphically abled for a few years to come.
Next-gen graphics + last-gen controller. Why can't Microsoft let us have both? Why does it have to be one or the other? :laughing:

[LazyBoy]

I'm sure many people wouldn't mind spending that extra £20 on the system actually be graphically abled for a few years to come.

Well for one it wouldn't cost £20. Now I presume you're going by the cheaper XBox package, which is indeed £20 more. But first you have to subtract the price of a WiiMote and Nunchuck, and a copy of Wii Sports. Was it £45 for the two?, and then lets say WiiSports is bargin price at £20.

So now you are talking £265 for the console. That's falling out of the range of the casual gamer, that market Nintendo is trying to reach. I'm willing to pay £265, but I don't think the public are.

[Pit-Jr]

so many good points about the darker and greedier side of Nintendo have been made in this thread.

While Iwata was busy interviewing and praising his hardware development team, i wonder how Nintendo's software dev teams feel about having to work with now-underpowered hardware for another 5 years, just because Nintendo wants to make Wii cheaper for us (read: for themselves)

Having said that, i think we should wait til weve experienced the damn thing on our own TVs before slating Nintendo, but i have a feeling this thread will be revived shortly after the launch

[Hellfire]

Extra £20?
Hold me, I might faint.

[fukudasolokomalakikenanze]

Shows the power of money...

Anyone here actually NOT going to buy a Wii console ever?

The more people buy the console, the more the gaming community will Wiip in the benefits and the industry will rejuvinate.

[Phube]

lol

They make the machine profitable
Its basically a cube with waggle

They know it is going to sell the most
We know it is going to sell the most

The DS was a test, and that test paid off, it sells a shit load week in week out

This is all for financial gain.

For a business??? How strange!!!

[mario_jr]

My new point:

Games like Assassin's Creed have both great gameplay and physics, along with fantastic graphics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dKCCEFQkrQ).

Why can't Nintendo let us have both? Why does it have to be one or the other?

It seems Wii restricts the developers as they can have great gameplay, but are limited with the graphics. I don't think we'll ever see anything as good as Assassin's Creed on Wii, simply because of these restrictions.

Well Nintendo didn't go Online last Gen cause they said it wasn't that big a deal and now it is, so they're going Online. This Gen they said that they didn't want to go the way of HD, and instead chose to go this route of innovative game play, and that next next Gen they will focus more on graphics.
Unless they can figure some new way to innovate our game play.......Megat0n:laughing:

[Dilli Gee]

Being HD has nothing to do with having good graphics. They're not the same thing, just like HD has nothing to do with being a blockbuster special effects film.

For a business??? How strange!!!
And Microsoft and Sony aren't businesses?

These are all companies with the interest of profit, it's just Microsoft is using a more consumer-friendly method to provide a better system.

Next-gen graphics + last-gen controller. Why can't Microsoft let us have both? Why does it have to be one or the other? :laughing:
The Wii-mote isn't a next generation controller. If it was, then by default most arcades are next-generation as well. The controller has nothing to do with being next-generation.

If Nintendo released a controller like the Wii-mote for the GameCube 4 years ago, would that have made the GameCube next generation? No.

[mario_jr]

Being HD has nothing to do with having good graphics.
yes it does. Whats the point of making great graphincs if they're going to be put on SD. Great graphincs look better on HD. Its like painting the Last Supper on a piece of newsprint, no one is going to care much, theres not enough space for the detail.:nono:


The Wii-mote isn't a next generation controller. If it was, then by default most arcades are next-generation as well. The controller has nothing to do with being next-generation.
They were when they came out in the late 70's early 80's, you can't call them Next Gen now.


[b]No.[b]
:laughing:

[Dilli Gee]

You missed my point entirely. It doesn't just have to be big blockbuster titles in HD, smaller titles can be HD too, like Tetris (if it wanted to be).

[mario_jr]

You missed my point entirely. It doesn't just have to be big blockbuster titles in HD, smaller titles can be HD too, like Tetris (if it wanted to be).

I think you missed your own point yet again.

My new point:

Games like Assassin's Creed have both great gameplay and physics, along with fantastic graphics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dKCCEFQkrQ).

Why can't Nintendo let us have both? Why does it have to be one or the other?

It seems Wii restricts the developers as they can have great gameplay, but are limited with the graphics. I don't think we'll ever see anything as good as Assassin's Creed on Wii, simply because of these restrictions.


SEE there:awesome: Then I said

Well Nintendo didn't go Online last Gen cause they said it wasn't that big a deal and now it is, so they're going Online. This Gen they said that they didn't want to go the way of HD, and instead chose to go this route of innovative game play, and that next next Gen they will focus more on graphics.
Unless they can figure some new way to innovate our game play.......Megat0n:laughing:

:hehe: :hehe:

[LazyBoy]

Being HD has nothing to do with having good graphics. They're not the same thing, just like HD has nothing to do with being a blockbuster special effects film.


And Microsoft and Sony aren't businesses?

These are all companies with the interest of profit, it's just Microsoft is using a more consumer-friendly method to provide a better system.


The Wii-mote isn't a next generation controller. If it was, then by default most arcades are next-generation as well. The controller has nothing to do with being next-generation.

If Nintendo released a controller like the Wii-mote for the GameCube 4 years ago, would that have made the GameCube next generation? No.

I think I actually disagree with your whole post. Lets try and break this down.

1. Sony and Microsoft run their businesses differently. Microsoft are selling at a loss, because they can afford to, Nintendo can't. They're more focused on establishing the brand name. Sony will try and replicate the success with the PS2, and make their money through the games.

2. I don't know how you bring customer friendliness into this. The Wii is cheaper, and offers a system that is simple and easy to use.

3. The Wii is a next genration controller. If it isn't I don't know what is. Seriously, please tell me what a next-generation controller is.

4. Well the cube was a next generation console at one point.


Can I just clarify, you're not getting a Wii are you.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4960/activisionkz7.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6031/atlusealu4.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6571/nintendobo9.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4302/segakonamilt8.jpg
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3199/thqhx7.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5002/ubisoftfs5.jpg

Seriously... after I pasted these on finnish Playstation forums, most users actually agreed that most games in these screenshots wouldn't be possible on PS2 or Gamecube or Xbox. I personally find it rather amusing that it's actually harder to make Nintendo fans believe in their console's graphical prowess than others. *sigh*

EDIT: THQ "horror gallery" was added simply because I originally wanted to demostrate how fucked up THQ's games always are.

[T-Bird]

Didn't this thread all originate from the FarCry screenies? Seriously I think it was blown way out of proportion. Looking at those ones there and just Zelda in general, you can clearly see it's way better graphics than the Gamecube. So it's obviously possible. It's just up to developers whether they want to go with the graphics or if they feel their game doesn't need graphics like that as some titles (eg. Wii Sports) don't need them at all.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

Didn't this thread all originate from the FarCry screenies?

This thread originated from TGS where Sony showed their games for first games for PS3.

[Librarian]

The world has gone mad today
And good's bad today,
And black's white today,
And day's night today,
When most guys today
That women prize today
Are just silly gigolos
And though I'm not a great romancer
I know that I'm bound to answer
When you propose,
Anything goes

[system_error]

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/4960/activisionkz7.jpg
http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6031/atlusealu4.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6571/nintendobo9.jpg
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4302/segakonamilt8.jpg
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3199/thqhx7.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/5002/ubisoftfs5.jpg

Seriously... after I pasted these on finnish Playstation forums, most users actually agreed that most games in these screenshots wouldn't be possible on PS2 or Gamecube or Xbox. I personally find it rather amusing that it's actually harder to make Nintendo fans believe in their console's graphical prowess than others. *sigh*

EDIT: THQ "horror gallery" was added simply because I originally wanted to demostrate how fucked up THQ's games always are.

Well I would disagree with you on that point. Zelda is a Gamecube game, Battalion Wars would be possible aswell. Except RedSteel, SplinterCell (depending on how the game looks running), Excite Truck and Sonic I am pretty sure every other title would be running fine on the Cube even on the Playstation 2. CoD 3 has nice smoke effects (but I heavly doubt we will see them like this in the game itself) but the polygons and textures are horrible. So I say those are some nice screenshots but in the end they are first generation Wii games or third generation Gamecube games.


To be honest I rather believe what the majority of people at Beyond3D claims - the Wii is a small step in power compared to the Gamecube. Energy consumption, size and efficency might have increased but either:

1. developers can't use all of the power the Wii gained (contradicts the Nintendo "easy development" philosophy)

or

2. there is really not much more power compared to the Gamecube

or

3. developers are still afraid of the Wii and don't put as much resources in Wii games as they could (which is contradicted by the Ubisoft support, the general love towards)

[Hellfire]

Well I would disagree with you on that point. Zelda is a Gamecube game, Battalion Wars would be possible aswell. Except RedSteel, SplinterCell (depending on how the game looks running), Excite Truck and Sonic I am pretty sure every other title would be running fine on the Cube even on the Playstation 2. CoD 3 has nice smoke effects (but I heavly doubt we will see them like this in the game itself) but the polygons and textures are horrible. So I say those are some nice screenshots but in the end they are first generation Wii games or third generation Gamecube games.



Sorry but GC couldn't do BWii, there are lots of effects that GC couldnt handle, the draw distance and all that combined with a stable framerate and lots of characters on screen.
I think the focus of the hardware was to make something profitable, small, quiet and withou a lot of power consumption. But Mario Galaxy shows that games can look good, devs just are investing their time on getting used to the wiimote.

[system_error]

Sorry but GC couldn't do BWii, there are lots of effects that GC couldnt handle, the draw distance and all that combined with a stable framerate and lots of characters on screen.
I think the focus of the hardware was to make something profitable, small, quiet and withou a lot of power consumption. But Mario Galaxy shows that games can look good, devs just are investing their time on getting used to the wiimote.



Alright maybe you are right but with some small modifications it would perfectly run on the Cube after all I think the Wii version still uses the same engine. So on the Cube it might take some more time to adjust it but it would run.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

Battalion Wars would be possible aswell.

If you had actually played first Battalion Wars and seen second one in motion, you would understand that there was major step there. Wii version has better light effects, better draw distance, lots of more vegetation, more complex tanks / soldiers, more textures and lovely looking particles.

CoD 3 has nice smoke effects (but I heavly doubt we will see them like this in the game itself)

Except that those smoke effects have already seen in gameplay video. Plus textures don't look that bad in motion.

And also what about Marvel Ultimate Alliance? It also comes for PS2 and Xbox and both versions looks way worse than Wii version.

[Shino]

And suddenly the Gamecube gained god like graphics.

[Dilli Gee]

I think I actually disagree with your whole post. Lets try and break this down.

1. Sony and Microsoft run their businesses differently. Microsoft are selling at a loss, because they can afford to, Nintendo can't. They're more focused on establishing the brand name. Sony will try and replicate the success with the PS2, and make their money through the games.

2. I don't know how you bring customer friendliness into this. The Wii is cheaper, and offers a system that is simple and easy to use.

3. The Wii is a next genration controller. If it isn't I don't know what is. Seriously, please tell me what a next-generation controller is.

4. Well the cube was a next generation console at one point.


Can I just clarify, you're not getting a Wii are you.
1. Nintendo can afford to, because they make billions and they've sold at a loss before.

2. Typical of a fanboy to shove simplicity and ease-of-use in my face, when I'm not even mentioning it.

3. I never said Wii isn't next-generation, I said it's not the controller that makes it next-gen, it's the system itself. If GameCube was re-released with the Wii-mote attachment 4 years ago, it would still be last-generation.

4. Duh.

And I am getting a Wii, I'm just going to wait until it either gets rave reviews for its games or it goes down in price. I was going to get it release day, but I'm spending my £130 on the mega-bargain that is the Xbox 360 HD-DVD pack.

Seriously I think it was blown way out of proportion. Looking at those ones there and just Zelda in general, you can clearly see it's way better graphics than the Gamecube.
We need to stop comparing Wii to last generation systems. It's not last generation, it's this generation.

[Hellfire]

You also need to stop comparing it to 360 and PS3 or else you'll never like anything graphically. Don't you understand that Nintendo is trying to appeal to a very wide demographic and have prophit at the same time? For that, they can't have a powerhouse, forget all previous notions of huge next gen leaps in graphics Nintendo abbandoned taht path just get on with it. And the controler is what makes it next gen, to me it's more next gen than PS3 and 360.

[mario_jr]

Next Generation doesnt start till sony says it does
That always makes me LOL. :horse:

[system_error]

If you had actually played first Battalion Wars and seen second one in motion, you would understand that there was major step there. Wii version has better light effects, better draw distance, lots of more vegetation, more complex tanks / soldiers, more textures and lovely looking particles.



Except that those smoke effects have already seen in gameplay video. Plus textures don't look that bad in motion.

And also what about Marvel Ultimate Alliance? It also comes for PS2 and Xbox and both versions looks way worse than Wii version.

I did play it. I also played Resident Evil 1 and Resident Evil 4 and you might wonder but I believe that the fourth part looked really a lot better. The time difference are years, Capcom wanted to make something great and they knew the GC architecture.

So if Capcom can go from RE1 to RE4 then I believe Kuju could do the same with Battalion Wars 1 to version 2.


I just watched the CoD3 video from Jeux-France - I am not really impressed even though the smoke looks close to the screenshots the rest of the setting is still "meh". If a few effects are enough to call it a big leap from the Gamecube CoD games then I am wrong but otherwise ...
Will CoD3 have online play? What are the launch games which support the cool free online play?



And just to make it clear I DID NOT EXPECT Alan Wake/Bioshock graphics from the Wii but SERIOUSLY enhanced games from day one when compared to the Gamecube. That means from every developer which made a game on the Cube.


So you named a game where the Wii version looks better than XBOX/PS2 - shouldn't that be a given? I could tell you instead a few games which look worse on the Wii... remember Farcry on XBOX?

Will CoD3 have online play? What are the launch games which support the cool free online play?

[Dilli Gee]

You also need to stop comparing it to 360 and PS3 or else you'll never like anything graphically. Don't you understand that Nintendo is trying to appeal to a very wide demographic and have prophit at the same time? For that, they can't have a powerhouse, forget all previous notions of huge next gen leaps in graphics Nintendo abbandoned taht path just get on with it. And the controler is what makes it next gen, to me it's more next gen than PS3 and 360.
Okay fair point.

My biggest concern still remains: what happens when we lose interest in shaking our arms around with a remote?

Unlike DS, there's no normal control setting to go back to.

[Hellfire]

Okay fair point.

My biggest concern still remains: what happens when we lose interest in shaking our arms around with a remote?

Unlike DS, there's no normal control setting to go back to.

It's not a matter of losing interest or not, it's a new control method, it replaces conventional pads, it's not like it's something hard to do or tiring, it's actually fun and intuitive. I've had my DS since launch and I don't want to go back to "normal controls", to me touch screen is normal now, everything else seems rudimentary and basic. It's clear that you are a graphic whore and that you view the wiimote as a gimmick, so just don't buy a Wii.
And again YOU DON'T NEED TO SHAKE YOUR ARM, YOU JUST USE YOUR WRIST! It's like a mouse but in 3D is it that hard to imagine?

[Shino]

The DS works without the graphics, because it is a handheld

The Wii, well

Once we get one FPS, then the rest are gonna be more or less the same, in terms of controls. It will go back down to the fundamental design, on how games always used to be made, and thats the design.

That applys for everything, except this method of control will still be better than the conventional ways and you won't see the games on PC.

[system_error]

I just wonder why there was so much hype around Smash Brothers: Brawl. It doesn't use the new controller, we don't know anything about the online mode nor do we know what characters will appear or how the gameplay will be.


OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I forgot ... it looks gorgeous ...

So that game is the big blue ocean/new controller exception but still one of the most anticipated games for the Wii. Strange...

[Teppo Holmqvist]

So you named a game where the Wii version looks better than XBOX/PS2 - shouldn't that be a given?

You did say following: "I am pretty sure every other title would be running fine on the Cube even on the Playstation 2". You said two posts ago that it was possible with Cube. Why so sudden change in heart? Little coherency would be nice, because your opinions change from post to post and I can't really take you seriously.

[mario_jr]

Unlike DS, there's no normal control setting to go back to.

Classic Controller.

And did anyone go back to using the Joystick for home console games after the control pads that we use today were introduced... no, didn't think so.

It's not a matter of losing interest or not, it's a new control method, it replaces conventional pads,

:smile: :horse:

[Shino]

I just wonder why there was so much hype around Smash Brothers: Brawl. It doesn't use the new controller, we don't know anything about the online mode nor do we know what characters will appear or how the gameplay will be.


OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I forgot ... it looks gorgeous ...

So that game is the big blue ocean/new controller exception but still one of the most anticipated games for the Wii. Strange...

No, not really. The hype is because Melee was such a good game.

[system_error]

YOU DID SAY following: "I am pretty sure every other title would be running fine on the Cube even on the Playstation 2". You said two posts ago that it was possible with Cube. Why so sudden change in heart? Little coherency would be nice, because I can't really take you seriously.

There is no change! The screenshots you showed display games which would be mostly possible on the Gamecube. So if a game looks better on the Wii than on PS2/XBOX this should be nothing special - but since not every game does I stated that if they look better this should be "a given" because:


2000/01 GC/PS2/XBOX Versus 2006 Wii


Battalion Wars 2 looks better than number 1 but I still believe it would also work on a Gamecube.

[Hellfire]

I just wonder why there was so much hype around Smash Brothers: Brawl. It doesn't use the new controller, we don't know anything about the online mode nor do we know what characters will appear or how the gameplay will be.


OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I forgot ... it looks gorgeous ...

So that game is the big blue ocean/new controller exception but still one of the most anticipated games for the Wii. Strange...

Because it's a good game and that's what matters. It's a sequel to one of the best games ever and it has an online mode. You know what the blue ocean strategy is about? Everything. Appealing to a lot of people. I love the Wiimote and never wanted SSB to be controlled with it, I was looking forward to it before seeing anything. So, it's not because it's gorgeous that I like it. It may be why YOU like it, but that's just you. Stop with that holier than thou attitude will ya?

[mario_jr]

I just wonder why there was so much hype around Smash Brothers: Brawl.

Because it will be the new best beat'em up game that will replace Melee

OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHH I forgot ... it looks gorgeous ...


Well you can't expect it to look the same as Melee did you. "OOOOOHHHHH wait I want FF XIII to look like FF X, and why can't MGS4 look like MGS on the PSX":wtf:

[Dilli Gee]

Classic Controller.
That's for arcade games. And I don't think it'd work with next generation games, because it doesn't have enough buttons.

[Teppo Holmqvist]

And I don't think it'd work with next generation games, because it doesn't have enough buttons.

Misinformed like always (or are trying to sound stupid just for sake of raising controversy?). Classic controller has....

- Two thumbsticks
- A, B, X, Y
- L, R
- C
- Unmapped button, next to C
- Start, Select
- Digital pad (4 buttons, like D-pad is often used in modern games)

Total: 14 buttons. One more than Cube. Two less than PS3 controller (if you count clickable thumbsticks, that is). More than enough for 98 percent of games.

[system_error]

@Mario/Hellfire:

I just wanted to point out that there can also be great games without the Wiimote but with excellent graphics and gameplay. Would Brawl be as good if it would be just Smash Brothers with new characters/stages?

And therfor games can be a lot better with great graphics and so far I did not see those great graphics in third party games even though Nintendo implied that in interviews. New and better hardware with the same architecture normally don't make games look like they did before.


@Teppo: Editing your post afterwards doesn't help me either to follow your points. I am sorry to say but I am not a die hard Nintendo defender no matter what happens.


If someone would explain to me how a improved console (5 years, Nintendo said they begun shortly after the Gamecube was released with the Wii) with a well known architecture has 80% games which look like Gamecube games. Even lazy developers should be able to make a difference when it comes to technical features of graphics - not art style. Answer me that and I stop posting about this topic.

[Shino]

Are you implying that Wii controls are better then Pc Controls?

I'm implying that they're better than current gamepads and maybe even PC. (atleast for FPS)

[Patch]

No, not really. The hype is because Melee was such a good game.

Yep, but more importantly it was the Gamecube's most popular game, if sales are anything to go by.

[mario_jr]

That's for arcade games. And I don't think it'd work with next generation games, because it doesn't have enough buttons.

Arcade games only people you heard it here.
Screw what Satoru Iwata said about using the classic controller for SSBB.:woops:

[Dilli Gee]

What's the point in having the Wii-mote if its flagship fighting game doesn't use it!

Well I hope my Cube controller works, or it comes with the classic controller.

[Hellfire]

No doubt, but i aint passing judgement just yet, Prime Hunters had "great controls" Supposedly, but they sucked.



Let's agree to disagree.

[Blue_Ninja0]

No doubt, but i aint passing judgement just yet, Prime Hunters had "great controls" Supposedly, but they sucked.

They will probably be better then analogs, better then PC, well we'll have to see.

You've got to be kidding. Either that, or you'r playing the game with your fingertip or using ABXY to aim. Or perhaps you'r using a needle on the touchscreen.:shakehead

Let's agree to disagree.

I agree with your sentence there.

[Shino]

You've got to be kidding. Either that, or you'r playing the game with your fingertip or using ABXY to aim. Or perhaps you'r using a needle on the touchscreen.:shakehead

He is right there, the controls aren't great.

[The Bard]

The only reason Prime: Hunters sucked a little was because of the god awful weapons. If you think about it; those same weapons would have been so much harder to aim with just dual analog. DS needs a proper FPS damnit. And a Street Fighter + Tekken Game too :(.

[system_error]

The only reason Prime: Hunters sucked a little was because of the god awful weapons. If you think about it; those same weapons would have been so much harder to aim with just dual analog. DS needs a proper FPS damnit. And a Street Fighter + Tekken Game too :(.


A bag of cash from Nintendo (and they have loads of cash) and the next Soulcalibur is a Wii exclusive for a year!

[Hellfire]

Give me 2D metroid any day.
Let's agree to agree.

[Shino]

Where the hell is my OOT and Banjo Kazooie on the DS.

[James McGeachie]

If they ever port Super Metroid it should be on DS. It'd do the visual style, music, button configuration (they'd be able to keep the run button) and map screen all a lot more justice than it being on GBA. I think the GBA would actually tarnish the quality of the game significantly and that's something I'd detest seeing.

[c0Zm1c]

The Wii-mote isn't a next generation controller. If it was, then by default most arcades are next-generation as well. The controller has nothing to do with being next-generation.
I never actually said the Wii-mote is a next-gen controller though. :wink:

But, whilst we're being picky like this, the only hard rule you can apply to next-gen is succession. So in fact, all of the new controllers are next-gen.

However, my point (that I think you somehow misinterpreted) still remains. The Xbox 360's controller is last-gen in design, it's functionality is practically identical to the original Xbox's controller - I see that lack of innovation as a much greater issue than graphics.

[Dilli Gee]

However, my point (that I think you somehow misinterpreted) still remains. The Xbox 360's controller is last-gen in design, it's functionality is practically identical to the original Xbox's controller - I see that lack of innovation as a much greater issue than graphics.
I don't think Xbox 360 users really care that the controller isn't as innovative as Wii's. It's not meant to be.

It plays games, in a tried-and-tested old fashion that hasn't been wrong for the last two decades, but all of a sudden is "confusing" and out-dated, just because Nintendo says so.

I don't think there's anything wrong with normal controllers. And I don't know what Nintendo thinks is wrong with them as well. Too many buttons? Wii isn't exactly short of buttons either. Not to mention you have to add on other stuff to move around.

[c0Zm1c]

I'm a Xbox 360 user, and I care that it isn't as innovative! When I first saw the 360 controller I was bitterly disappointed that Microsoft hadn't done anything new with it. I've learnt to accept it of course, I've had to, but if the Wii-mote and nunchuk prove a better gaming solution (particularly for first and third-person shooters - which current controller convention is naff for) then the 360's controller will quickly begin to look awkwardly outdated more than complacently tried-and-tested.

EDIT: aren't Microsoft working on a new controller for the 360 though?

[Dilli Gee]

I think FPS would be awesome with the Wii-mote.

[mario_jr]

It plays games, in a tried-and-tested old fashion that hasn't been wrong for the last two decades, but all of a sudden is "confusing" and out-dated, just because Nintendo says so.

I don't think there's anything wrong with normal controllers. And I don't know what Nintendo thinks is wrong with them as well. Too many buttons? Wii isn't exactly short of buttons either. Not to mention you have to add on other stuff to move around.

To new players it is confusing with all the buttons. Like flying a jet airplane compared to driving an automatic car, not as many buttons to push or dials to read.
Outdated yes, no one has really bothered to try a new controller, just small improvements over the other.:horse:

[Shyguy]

i like the 360 controller apart from the batterypack can get alittle in the way... but the 360 has a comfertable grip and you can reach all the vuttons with ease... but that nintendo are trying to say... with our controller... you will feel even more actions... because you are doing actions that relate to what you have to do in the game. e.g. Wii Sports, you swing as you would IRL... therfor not scaring people away with pressing buttons to do stuff

[Blue_Ninja0]

And a Super Metroid on the DS would be grand, it would be like metroid zero mission,

Graphical overhaul, plus, Castlevania style layout, and you have yourself a winner

Someone give this guy 5 internets for such true sentences.

Also:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4175/1159292704707pv8.gif

But i want this thread to die anyway.