“Wii games aren't for hardcore gamers..” - Juan Castro at IGN Playstation

[Dante]

Juan Castro from IGN Playstation says;
“How is the Wii the only right choice for gamers? Contrary to what you believe, Wii games for the most part ignore “hardcore” gamers. Just look at its lineup. It’s filled with games like Elebits, Super Monkey Ball, Duck Hunt and Excite Truck. It has a handful of promising games, take Super Mario Galaxy and Wario Ware, but the rest hardly qualify as harcore, if that’s the point you want to make. Hell, even its best games, like Mario, Zelda and Metroid, wouldn’t really qualify as hardcore.”

“The Wii may outsell it (PS3) at launch, but no one cares about those numbers…With the Wii, on the other hand, developers hesitate calling it a next-gen system now, which isn’t so hot…and this is something both hardcore and casual gamers will definitely notice.”

That blogsite (http://gonintendo.com/?p=5406)

[xernobyl]

The real question is:
What is a hardcore gamer?

[pedrocasilva]

This is just one of the no name guys that wrote a comment about Wii's name when it was unveiled, bashing it just because, all childishly happy... a Nintendo hater by excelence.

The fact that he's even trying to justify just shows that he's afraid, he's even saying that Wii "may" outsell PS3 at launch, but rambles that no one cares, well; newsflash: he obviously cares... :grin:

The thing is... he's not even paid by Sony, this is PR talk like the likes of Ken, Kaz Hirai, Phill Harrison "Look PS3 is gonna be outsold big time on launch, but it really means anything! hell, PSP being outsold for two years means nothing".

Seriously... Is that contagious?

Also is he calling himself a hardcore gamer? what a loser... a hardcore player plays anything and knows how to apreciate that in the light of what the game is, and not for what it isn't. He obviously didn't even get over his teenager fanboyism to play Sony's competitors games (and be able to praise them). Juan Castro... Get a Life.

Oh, and on the "next gen system" note... I've heard lots of Devs and critics calling it "the only next gen console" due to it's controller... That even Sony of yours tried to copy on last E3, sore loser.

[Eenuh]

Bleh, the IGN folks are usually idiots. They're great for like, finding out about the latest news and media stuff, but their reviews and opinion pieces often suck.

By the way, I don't call myself a hardcore gamer (I don't think I play enough different games or something), so I guess the Wii is perfect for me. And I don't know why you wouldn't call Zelda and Metroid hardcore games; they're certainly not games my mom or my sisters (all non-gamers) could play. He's just talking crap...

[Shino]

I was going to trash the dude, but his just doing his job, he has to please his readers, and as we know, Sony Fanboys usualy say shit like that.

[pedrocasilva]

Bleh, the IGN folks are usually idiots. They're great for like, finding out about the latest news and media stuff, but their reviews and opinion pieces often suck.

By the way, I don't call myself a hardcore gamer (I don't think I play enough different games or something), so I guess the Wii is perfect for me. And I don't know why you wouldn't call Zelda and Metroid hardcore games; they're certainly not games my mom or my sisters (all non-gamers) could play. He's just talking crap...I don't consider myself a hardcore gamer aswell, that's a pretentious thing to do. If it wasn't for Nintendo I wouldn't even have a home console.

I often spend weeks without playing, despite having a big game collection (+65 games for GC).

On Zelda's note... Zelda is one of the only games that when launched non-gamers like to see in action, I remember when WW came out, there were people not willing to leave the room giving instructions on what to do next despite (when offered) not wanting to play.

This only happened this after with RE4, another top quality game.

We might say that a non-gamer doesn't have a eye for quality, but I'd rather say the oposite, a non-player sometimes can judge it best.

As for hardcore games... that means being too dificult for the general public right?

Well... I found this generations trend to be easy to reach the end of a game, as a measure to atract gamers, avoiding to frustrate them, I remember a few years ago it was really hard to finish a game, now it's a natural thing to do.

Resident Evil 4, Metal Gear Solid, God of War... are games meant to be finished, by anyone. And they are also PS2's biggest system sellers...

If he thinks he's hardcore because of games like that, and because he finished them... he's a really sad man.

I think he's mixing hardcore games, with "adult themed games". I've never seen a age rating 18 on a game like Ikaruga, but I'd like to see this asshole play it. He asked for hardcore games.

Incidentally Metroid Prime series is IMO one of the most dificult games I've ever played in the genre.

[Shino]

Incidentally Metroid Prime series is IMO one of the most dificult games I've ever played in the genre.

In it's own genre.

[pedrocasilva]

In it's own genre.That genre being adventure games, despite it's camera classification (first person or third person).

[Aimless]

“How is the Wii the only right choice for gamers? Contrary to what you believe, Wii games for the most part ignore “hardcore” gamers. Just look at its lineup. It’s filled with games like Elebits, Super Monkey Ball..."
That's as far as I got.

I wish opinion pieces were more opinion, less regurgitated PR.

[The Peeps]

I was going to trash the dude, but his just doing his job, he has to please his readers, and as we know, Sony Fanboys usualy say shit like that.

QFT

And I agree with Pedro's description of a hardcore gamer. Hardcore gamers being the ones that will play games as a hobby or whatever rather than casual gamers who will just play now and then because it's there.

[pedrocasilva]

This is just one of the no name guys that wrote a comment about Wii's name when it was unveiled, bashing it just because, all childishly happy... a Nintendo hater by excelence.Yeah, I love to quote myself:

Juan Castro, IGN PSP: At this point, I'm not sure it matters if Nintendo's new system has a cool name or not. They want to attract infants and the senile, not the PS3 crowd. At any rate, "Wii" is no more cracked-out than the "Revolution" concept itself. I knew it, I've seen his ugly mug before.

His words got softer, I think he's actually afraid now :laughing:

[ndreamer]

that comment is just sad, if any one is an infant it's him.

[Librarian]

sigh.. I always hated those "hard core"/"casual" gamer stamps..

but then again.. he does it to piss wii people off and that's part of the game.

Beeing hardcore is to do what YOU feel right and not what some other wanker tells you is hardcore

[PioRow]

This guy says that Wii games ignore hardcore gamers. Ge really needs to quantify what he thinks a hardcore gamer. In my opinion people who bought a PS2 and bought all the mainstream games and are blindly devoted to the PS3 arent hardcore gamers. People who played Mario64 through to 120 stars are hardcore, people who played zelda on the snes to the finish are harcore, people who owned dreamcasts, saturns, these are hardcore gamers.

It is true that the Wii has games that are more friendly and less gritty but this doesnt make them any less hardcore.

What I think the problem is that a lot of pro PS3 people are getting frustrated by Sony. They see the PS3 as the next big thing, the uber console, the dream machine. But it seems to be encountering problems that are impeeding it from being the best it can be and this frustrates pro PS3 people like this IGN fellow.
See how they get the attack on sales in before one unit has been sold. You know if the PS3 outsold the Wii they would be shouting about it but they know that the Wii is going to outsell the PS3 world wide untill March 07 guaranteed. And after that I cant see sony's production upping enough to over take the Wii world wide until at least christmas 07. And by then the Wii will of established a big enough user base that its a force to be reckoned with.

[raven_blade2006]

For his info the Wii is considered a New Gen console not a Next Gen. Its not merely a continuation of what was there before. Just wait and let him see the games that are on the horizon for Wii. He will change his opinion soon enough.

Bitter, bitter man....

[Hellfire]

http://img303.imageshack.us/img303/9514/sonydefencerb5.jpg

[DiemetriX]

The real question is:
What is a hardcore game?

It's a game where you can drive a car. Go out of a car. Beat down an old lady. And then steal a motorcykel.. That sounds about right :indeed:

[Cleveland_Jr]

Oh, and on the "next gen system" note... I've heard lots of Devs and critics calling it "the only next gen console" due to it's controller... That even Sony of yours tried to copy on last E3, sore loser.

Thankyou! It really is the only next-gen console, and anyone who can't see that is caught up in a graphics/power hungry ignorant train of thought.

I hate how theres so many sony fans saying "its just a gamecube with a different controller, its nothing new." when ps3 is just a ps3 with *GASP* more power and graphics!

Anyway, is a hardcore gamer someone who plays games with 30 different buttons to remember and storylines involving special ops guys and assasins? I don't think so...I agree with some of the previous posts, in that a hardcore gamer is simply someone who enjoys challenging and stimulating games.

[Mundi]

People who played Mario64 through to 120 stars are hardcore, people who played zelda on the snes to the finish are harcore, people who owned dreamcasts, saturns, these are hardcore gamers.


I couldn´t help but smile when i read this, petty much described my gaming agenda when i was a kid.


But to me hardcore gamers are those who play games that they think are fun and don´t let thinks like reviews hold them from playing game that they want to play

[mike-zim]

he is a tosser.

[BlueStar]

Monkey Ball is one of the most nerve-shredding, hardcore games I've played, with a strong and highly competitive multiplayer mode that's up there with games like MicroMachines in terms of intensity.

Has this guy recently moved up from a newspaper games column or something, or is he quite well known?

[JetSetWilly]

I don't like the term "hard-core" gamer. I prefer "enthusiast". If you hang out on a site like this I would say you're an enthusiast.

I would expect most enthusiasts to be open to all game experiences - whatever the platform.

His argument is completely vacuous. Is Singstar Online a hardcore game? Cos that's a PS3 launch title. Eyetoy? Those dance-mat thingys? Buzz the Music Quiz? PS2 has plenty of games that appeal to the groups he's sneering at and so will PS3. He should concentrate on playing games and spend less time thinking PS3 is a passport to membership of some elite group.

[YenRug]

I had debated pasting that whole Roundtable, think I will now that someone's picked up on this one particular post from it:

http://uk.insider.ign.com/articles/730/730963p1.html

Roundtable #173: The Declining State of Sony
We just got more bad news regarding the PS3. Is Sony doing anything right these days?
by David Clayman

September 6, 2006 - David Clayman, IGN Insider: There seems to be a strange amount of ill will towards Sony recently. One could argue that it started with the less than exciting E3 press conference and has snowballed since then. What is for sure is that this is a very different pre-launch environment than we saw last year with 360.

I was sifting through the news releases from last year on our 360 channel and there was an explosion of 360 info around the time of Games Convention. At the GC conference MS demonstrated use of the console live. This was followed by live demonstrations of Kameo and media releases for PGR3, Condemned, Full Auto, and a bunch of other stuff. At GC this year we saw the same PS3 trailers from E3 and very few games behind closed doors. A particular game was bugging out too much on the PS3 dev kit for us to preview it.

I'm sure some of this sour mood has to do with the system's price. It's not too much more than 360 but lets face it - our ideal price point for a must-have system is far below $600. Anything over $200 makes people cranky. At this time last year Microsoft had a little viral marketing campaign going and retailers were already offering ridiculous bundles. There's still plenty of buzz over PS3 but Sony seems to be sitting back and relying on their massive market share instead of catering to the media.

Of course the crazy "PS9" advertising campaign for PlayStation 2 didn't start until late October back in 2000. With the promise of many playable games at TGS, this might all turn around. Another thing to consider is that Sony may be so entrenched in America that none of their current presentation issues will matter.

What is Sony doing right? What are they doing wrong? Is pressure building towards a TGS presentation that must blow the crowd away? Does any of this matter or will PS3 sell out of stores for the next few years no matter what?

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Hilary Goldstein, IGN Comics: I believe this quote sums up the state of Sony:

The oldest paradox in the universe had just struck [Dennagon] like a lightning bolt that he could neither outrun nor hide from. He searched the canyons of his wrinkled brain, scouring his intellect for an answer, but it would not respond. He let Ballaxior finish.

"If causality holds true, then it must have emerged from nothingness. Unless you wish to succumb to the dungeons of nihilism."

Dennagon shook his head. "Nay, I'll not accept nihilism. It makes no sense. Causality is inevitably real. It drives the machine of time."

- Dragons: Lexicon Triumvirate, by Kenneth Eng

http://insidermedia.ign.com/insider/image/article/730/730963/roundtable-173-the-declining-state-of-sony-20060906035623265.jpg

Did I mention these are dragons with swords and submachine guns?
Need we say more about the state of Sony?

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Mark Ryan Sallee, IGN Guides: Sony's got two huge problems that are largely responsible for the recent anti-PS3 sentiments; a six-hundred dollar price tag and the certainty of scarce supply have got pretty much everyone in the industry thinking that Sony's holidays are a disaster in the making. These aren't things that even the best showing at Tokyo Game Show can fix--unless Sony's been lying to shareholders and is actually launching a $399 PS3 with five million available worldwide at launch.

Now there are some wrongs that Sony can right in the time between now and launch. It's time for Sony to start giving people a reason to buy PS3 beyond the promise of Metal Gear Solid 4, showing us the games that'll be available at launch and showing us stuff that at least approximates the huzzah of E3 2005 (i.e. where's Killzone?). It's time for Sony to speak openly about their online plans. It's time for Sony's PS3 marketing to go beyond sending out Kaz to regurgitate the same BS we've been hearing for months.

Dave, you're right that it feels like Sony is behind schedule on this sort of stuff. Tokyo Game Show later this month is their last chance to change the minds of the naysayer's. If TGS goes off anything like this year's E3, I'll be joining your countdown, along with many others, I suspect.

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Steven Ng, IGN FAQ's: 500,000 units for two regions -- NTSC-1 & 2.
Seems to flout Econ101's "Supply and Demand".

If there was a quiz on it this Friday, Sony would fail.

That or their business "strateegery" is on par with President Bush's college GPA.

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Matt Casamassina, IGN Wii :I don't think there's any conspiracy at hand. People love to hate the market leaders and Sony happens to be sitting in the number one position. Of course, it's not as though Kutaragi and company have gone out of their way to deliver a cheap and accessible console to the masses with PlayStation 3.

On a semi-related note, if today's announcement about Sony's delay in Europe and the tiny numbers of PS3 in the US and Japan is true, youch. I'm pretty sure every retailer in the US suddenly has Nintendo of America on speed dial in an attempt to add Wii shelf space.

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Meghan Sullivan, IGN DB: As had been stated, the bottom line is price. Even if the PS3 is worth $1000 and Sony is giving it away at $600, that's still an outrageous price for the parents who have to buy it (and grown adults). Simply put, it ALWAYS boils down to economics.

Sony is going to have to take a profit dive on this one if they want to move their product. That might mean slashing the PS3 price and then later jacking up the price of games, but they'd better do something about that $600 tag. And fast.

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Jessica Chobot, IGN Hostess with the Mostess: ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH! Sony!!!!!!
WTF!?

First the price tag and now this and all because of that stupid Blu-Ray system that they're shoving down gamers' throats!!??? Granted, the 360 had a semi-flaccid launch what with the constant breakage but at least the price didn't rape your wallet straight out of the box (*note to Sony: it's all about the optional accessories).

At first I thought Sony was just getting cocky. Now I think they're just straight up stupid.

Sony + Blu-Ray = Duuuuuuuurrrrrrrrr....

http://insidermedia.ign.com/insider/image/article/730/730963/roundtable-173-the-declining-state-of-sony-20060906035723749.gif

**what makes this even more unfortunate is the fact that I will still buy one JUST to play FFXIII**

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David Clayman, IGN Insider: From our own Matt Wales:
"It's currently expected that around 400,000 PlayStation 3s will be available for the console's US launch on November 17 while approximately 100,000 units will ship on the Japanese launch day of November 11. By way of comparison, the PS2's US launch saw around 500,000 units hitting shelves on day one (the figure having been revised from an expected 1 million units by Sony the previous month following supply shortages); with Japan receiving just shy of 1 million units."

It looks as though the console has also been delayed until March 2007 in Europe. I was trying to be even-handed with my first response. I would now like to adjust that foolishness. Sony made the mistake of screwing up their priorities. Instead of focusing on a next-gen gaming console they leveraged their market share towards a format change for films. Great idea if you can pull it off. We'll see.

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Levi Buchanan, IGN Wireless: 100,000 for the Japanese launch vs. ~400,000 for America? I wonder how that slight will sit with gamers across the Pacific?

It's strange. I live in Portland, but I thought I heard party music wafting down the I-5 corridor from Redmond, WA at about 9AM this morning.

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Charles Onyett, IGN PC: True, great idea if Sony can pull off an evolution of both games and movie formats with the same piece of hardware. But why force consumers to double-adopt? Why not give them a choice, like an external Blu-Ray drive?

The $599 price tag of the PS3 no longer seems so outrageous to me. I mean, if Xbox 360 owners are paying $400 plus $70 per refurbish (which seems to be happening quite a bit), they even out. PC gamers will soon have to make a massive upgrade to their video cards with the Vista/DX10 launch if they want to stay ahead of the graphical curve. Judging by the pricing trends of late, we can expect these cards in to be in the $500 - $700 range.

With this considered, the only new gaming option that remains reasonable is Nintendo's Wii.

Taking the price tag out of the equation, Sony's certainly not instilling any kind of confidence in prospective buyers by delaying and cutting shipments. What kind of moron wants to invest in a new technology that the manufacturer can't even control?

I'm in total agreement with what Mark said earlier. Sony needs to blow out all their info, including how their online services work. They need to demystify their machine right now, since nobody's going to pre-order based on nebulous corporate promises and an apparent inability to control their own technology on which they're banking their future.

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Mark Bozon, IGN Wii: First off, I have to say a re-decision is in order for the Vs. segment we did on IGN Weekly a few months back. When Gerry went up against Jeremy the opinions were just that. Now that we're starting to see this launch take shape, and the decision seems to be favored quite the contrary from what was originally handed out.

That being said (and of course, it's nothing more than playful banter), the situation really is pretty dire for PS3. We've got to keep in mind though, that US eats up the Sony name. Playstation is the new household name for "Playing Nintendo", but Sony is really pushing its luck with this one. We're about to see what's really in a name.

In the current state, I'd honestly say Sony should re-think launching in 2K6. There really is no point; aside from doing BS propaganda that states "PS3 Sells Out For Christmas!" to make it look like this system is the 2nd coming or something. The wise move would be to swallow some pride, hold off distribution, work with more quality control (lord knows what condition those 500K systems will be in if the rush is this insane, and we've all fallen victim to the drama around broken PS2 and 360 units), and prep for a seriously kick-ass Q1 2007 launch.

And to be honest, a 2007 launch also gives the market more time to get used to seeing the Blu-ray name. For a tech head like myself (and Casamassina), a $600 price tag is nothing compared to a $1000 HD unit we're normally seeing at Best Buy. For those that aren't down with the ogre-sized price tag, this is yet another black mark, but in reality the system has the Playstation name, it has the same backing with Blu-ray as it did with DVD, and bottom line, the system will still most likely sell like crazy once Sony gets its act together.

For Nintendo, this is a huge shove in the right direction. The only thing I fear is that Nintendo, like it has been doing (and face it, will most likely keep doing), won't be aggressive enough in marketing to show consumers why Wii isn't just the "only choice" for new systems this holiday, but also the right choice regardless of the amount of competitors. We keep seeing Nintendo talk about how the system is for everyone, but so far the company is aiming towards the hardcore almost entirely. We have to see more aggression from the Big N, and this Sony delay is yet another reason it is absolutely essential that Nintendo is ready to launch, and ready to hit the market harder than ever. Here's hoping for a counter-attack by Nintendo to finally hit the mainstream audience like they did back in the 80's. Did I just hear someone shout "Now You're Playing with Power?" I think I did.

As a quick note, I'll say that the American market is going to be a lot harder for Nintendo to win than the Japanese one. True, this is always the case, but this time around I've got a feeling Ninty is going for a freaking landslide in Gozirra-town. PS2 had the easy victory in Japan, with GameCube trailing behind it (but in 2nd nonetheless), but with only 100K units during the holidays (countered with Nintendo's projected 5-5.5 Million worldwide) we're going to see riots for the Wii. DS Lite destroyed the competition (I believe the DS is actually the fastest selling system in history over in Japan, right? Someone seriously correct me if I'm wrong…but I think that's accurate), and if there was that much of a hoopla for a touch screen, innovative control and a staggeringly small price tag is going to take that country by storm. Now Nintendo just has to worry about getting a little more of the US market, as I still feel like we're part of the away team being US journalists covering a Nintendo product. Didn't the company make a splash in the 80's? Why is that still the case?

Did Sony put itself in a tight spot? Yes. Did we see this coming to a degree? I think so. Will it actually hurt the company in the long run? That remains to be seen, but it certainly didn't help.

http://insidermedia.ign.com/insider/image/article/730/730963/roundtable-173-the-declining-state-of-sony-20060906041820460.jpg

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Mark Ryan Sallee, IGN Still Playing Okami: I've already heard it pointed out that Sony shipped only 500,000 units to the US at the PlayStation 2 launch, and that the PS3's expected 400,000 isn't much lower. Good point--if this is the year 2000, Microsoft and Nintendo aren't yet on the market, and the PlayStation 3 is only $299.

Yes, PlayStation 2 endured a miserable launch and still managed to secure a decisive lead in the market. Does that mean that PlayStation 3 can suffer the same? I don't think so. A spoiled launch doesn't spell instant doom for Sony, but this inevitably awful holiday season is not as easily reconciled as Sony's six years ago.

PlayStation 3's pricing has, since this year's E3, put a huge question mark on the viability of the console, but no one doubted that the system would sell well throughout the holidays, regardless of the $599 sticker on the box. For a console costing six hundred dollars, a healthy launch is vital to disseminate the millions of units that constitute a market leader; at launch and during the holidays, a high price tag doesn't matter, and Sony will-slash-would-have sold as many units as they put on shelves.

But five-hundred thousand? Only two million projected units to be available by the end of the year? After the holidays, Sony's got the challenge of convincing consumers to buy a $599 console, consumers that are driven by neither the holiday rush nor the excitement of a launch.

Earlier this year, Microsoft ran into similar problems. After a launch with demand far in excess of supply, Microsoft eventually got Xbox 360 units into stores to satisfy the masses. But by the time consoles were available (around April and May), the holiday rush and launch excitement had faded. Xbox 360 sales have since been disappointing, in the US and in every other major territory, as Microsoft is now selling a four hundred dollar videogame system to average people. Sony's problems at $599 will quite possibly--probably?--be worse.

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Steven Ng, IGN FAQ's: I just saved $600 and I didn't have to switch to e-Surance, Geico, or Eastwood.

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Gerry Block, IGN Gear: This is bad, bad news for Sony, though it's hardly a surprise. I've been following HD-DVD and Blu-ray news closely for Gear, and I started getting nervous for the PS3 months ago. Does anyone remember all the promises for 2nd-gen HD-DVD/Blu-ray hardware before Christmas, the cheaper, better models that would include Managed Copy functionality and other good stuff? Those new models were all cancelled months ago. Why? Weak demand for the 10,000 or so units of next-gen DVD hardware shipped to the States, followed by severe shortages of blue laser diodes we covered last month.

There are probably fewer than 30,000 HD-DVD and Blu-ray players in the world right now, and most manufacturers don't have enough parts to mass produce any more. Sony stopped shipping blue diodes to its Blu-ray partners months ago when the problem started getting obvious, and it now appears as though they only managed to stock up 500,000 or so. Manufacturing yields on new diodes are just now reaching 30%, which, coupled with Cell Processor yields in the 20-30% range, equals a very difficult supply and manufacturing chain to manage efficiently. Sony is still claiming that they'll be able to supply 1,000,000 or so units "through the launch window," which, we must assume, means up to Christmas.

Assuming that PS3 production has officially started now (which isn't confirmed), they're giving themselves 2 and a half months to produce 500,000 PS3s before launch in November, and then about 1 month and a few days to churn out 600,000 more for the States. NPD reports that the Xbox 360 sold 326,000 units in its first 9 days. The PS3 will certainly sell out every available unit, but if Sony is BS'ing the extra 600,000 figure (can you really trust anything they're saying these days?) the PS3 launch will be a momentary blip in November followed by nothing. The excitement will fizzle out before December. How many people that got burned by yearning for a 360 all last Christmas will be ready to get hyped up for another console that's impossible to buy?

I blame the failure of the PS3 launch squarely on the idiots at both Sony and Toshiba that decided it was time to launch a new DVD format, and then start a format war. The market is not ready for a new movie format, and Sony was arrogant in trying to steam-roll the battle with Toshiba by packaging Blu-ray with the PS3. It might have worked if they actually were going to be able to sell 4 million PS3s by Christmas, but now that the Blu-ray issue has bit them in the ass they've crippled their ability to sell their number one consumer electronics product (PlayStation) and devoted massive resources to Blu-ray, which, even if it weren't head-to-head with HD-DVD, wouldn't be selling well in the first place.

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Mark Nix, IGN DB Manager: On the flipside of the awful launch synopsis, however, PS3 is still bound to be the most talked about and fought over Christmas item of the year. Hype, good and bad, has always been something Sony has been able to capitalize on.

The challenge is still there: MS must do what it can to take Xbox to that next level and really set itself up to be the "next PlayStation" market leader with only Gears of War at killer-app status (which may well be enough, but then again, it takes a real certain something to attract players who usually don't play), while Nintendo has to put it in people's minds that the Wii will be different from GameCube and N64 (and, to an extent, GBA and even DS) and that they should get into the system for more than just Mario and Zelda. Sony just needs to make sure that their PlayStation name stays golden ... which, with that $600 price tag and this delay and all of the other gaffes SCE has made along the way, they've unfortunately done a heck of a lot to tarnish.

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http://insidermedia.ign.com/insider/image/article/730/730963/roundtable-173-the-declining-state-of-sony-20060906035622890.jpg

Hilary Goldstein, IGN Comics: This is how Sony has made me feel today with this announcement...

As she picked it up, she wrapped her tail around his. Stopping him for a moment, she allowed her colleagues to mobilize ahead by a distance far enough to prevent them from hearing her. He did not seem to take heed of her sudden action, even as her talon ran up his crystal chest.
"That was a nicely handled attack on the thunderbirds," she whispered.

Dennagon maintained his stolid expression. "I was a sentry, after all."

"You're much more than that."

She placidly breathed deep dark blue fire on his sword. The blade split the flame in half, letting some of it wash innocuously against his green diamond face.

She batted his wings with her tail. Even with her daredevil nature, she had to exert much inner force to expunge from her jaws what her heart wanted to say. Fear lurked in her, touched with embarrassed nervousness, but she knew that if she let herself become chained by her own emotions, then there would be no domination over her enemies. She had to say it.

"Do you also believe in love..." she started hesitantly, "...at first sight?"

"I don't judge books by their covers or whelps by their faces."

Lyconel gasped. She had just unveiled her inner most sensations and had been rejected quicker than an electron's revolutionary period around a nucleus.

- Dragons: Lexicon Triumvirate, by Kenneth Eng

Did I mention these are dragons with swords and submachine guns?
Sony, you have rejected my love quicker than a, well, you get the point.

Also, you cost $600. Do you know how many whores Stephen Ng could freak out with that kind of cash?

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Chris Roper, IGN Playstation: Launch volumes don't mean s*** in the long run. The PS2 launched with something like 500,000 units, and look how it's done. The problem will be if Sony can't manufacturer enough of them later, as in, when the mass market can finally afford them.

Matt's right in that market leaders will always be the bad guy. Look at Microsoft. In the gaming industry, people seem to like the company quite a bit. But look at it from the general PC consumer standpoint and you'll only hear bitching about how they can't make an OS to save their $261,247,482,138,221,816 company.

Sure, it sucks for the hardcore folks out there that are going to have to try that much harder to find a system on Day 1, but it very likely won't mean anything in the long run. If Sony can still hit its 6 million unit promise by March of 2007, or at least come close, everything will be fine.

My only worry is that it's starting to hint that it might not be able to -- otherwise the European launch would likely be earlier...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jeremy Dunham, IGN Playstation: My response won't be too earth-shattering as many of my opinions on this subject have already been shared by other editors. That said, I'm in agreement that this is a big blow for Sony's industry and public perception. Having the fewest units, the highest price, and a launch lineup that's largely made up of third-party software available on other platforms is definitely not the way to jump out at people during Christmas.
But I also think that people who are already predicting the system to be a failure are being far too narrow-sighted. One holiday that underperforms does not make a career. Or do I have to remind everyone that the year the PS2 launched, it was crushed by the Dreamcast in terms of overall holiday sales by a ratio of almost 4 to 1? The Dreamcast was cheaper (roughly half the price of the PS2), had more software, and a head start -- and we all know how that turned out.

We have a tendency to write people off way too quickly in this business and, honestly, at this publication. Or did everyone forget their claims that the PSP would dominate the DS in past roundtables? Or did they forget the talk said that Nintendo would never be able to catch up to Sony or Microsoft following the Cube/ PS2/ Xbox wars? Again, look at the current state of things, understand history and the consumer. Bandwagons are popular because their convenient, not because they're correct.

Oh and Bozon, when Gerry and I debated this topic many months ago, it was about whether or not the system would fail when all was said and done -- not whether or not its launch would go smoothly. It's far too early to cash those chips in and declare someone PWNED before the system even comes out, otherwise it's just being irresponsible.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Juan Castro, IGN Playstation: Bozon-IGN posted:
For Nintendo, this is a huge shove in the right direction. The only thing I fear is that Nintendo, like it has been doing (and face it, will most likely keep doing), won't be aggressive enough in marketing to show consumers why Wii isn't just the "only choice" for new systems this holiday, but also the right choice regardless of the amount of competitors. We keep seeing Nintendo talk about how the system is for everyone, but so far the company is aiming towards the hardcore almost entirely. We have to see more aggression from the Big N, and this Sony delay is yet another reason it is absolutely essential that Nintendo is ready to launch, and ready to hit the market harder than ever.

How is the Wii the only right choice for gamers? Contrary to what you believe, Wii games for the most part ignore "hardcore" gamers. Just look at its lineup. It's filled with games like Elebits, Super Monkey Ball, Duck Hunt and Excite Truck. It has a handful of promising games, take Super Mario Galaxy and Wario Ware, but the rest hardly qualify as harcore, if that's the point you want to make. Hell, even its best games, like Mario, Zelda and Metroid, wouldn't really qualify as hardcore.

As for the European delay and lack of US units this holiday season...

Yikes. It's obviously a negative thing in the short term, but few people expected the PS3 to hit its stride right after launch, anyway. Like the 360, it will probably take the PS3 a while before it finds its footing. The Wii may outsell it at launch, but no one cares about those numbers. Now, if the Wii is still outselling the PS3 in three years, well, that's another story. But given Sony's strategy in trying to "futureproof" the system, chances are the PS3 will still appear irrefutably next-gen years from now. With the Wii, on the other hand, developers hesitate calling it a next-gen system now, which isn't so hot...and this is something both hardcore and casual gamers will definitely notice.

And yes, it's easy to hate a company who wants to "force" very expensive change upon people, but the PS3 (like the PS2) before it, appeals to older gamers who have a better chance of affording it. And, just like Jeremy likes to point out, Sony is banking on the iPod people out there -- those bazillions of people who gladly pay upwards of 350 bucks for a music player.

And there it is...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark Ryan Sallee, IGN Guides: Hah, the three PlayStation editors think this ordeal isn't so bad for Sony!

As sure as you can't predict long-term failure from Sony's looming problematic launch, you also can't say that the PS3's problems will self-correct when Sony finally gets product on shelves. Like I said before, you can't straight compare the PlayStation 3 launch and supply problems to those of PS2. The PS2's only competitor in 2000 was the Dreamcast from a dying SEGA, a company that was coming off an awful loss with the Saturn and wasn't financially stable enough to compete. In 2006, Sony's weak launch supplies are going against a competitive and financially sound Microsoft and Nintendo who will have had about eight months of good press leading up to launch. And there was something else I was going to mention, as well... What was it? Oh yeah, six hundred bucks!

You also can't write off the anti-Sony sentiment as a bandwagon movement against a leader that's popular to hate. Had you asked me earlier this year, before E3 2006, I'd've predicted another runaway success for Sony--and popular opinion would've agreed. But E3 happened. Sony showed uncompelling software, visuals that don't match their earlier promises, and dropped that price bomb. It happened and things haven't gotten better. You're going to have to forgive people that think Sony's recent supply announcement is a bad sign for PlayStation 3. They're not just showing bias.

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

Burn the heretic!

http://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8898/sh1jr2.jpg

I think the mass market is smart enough to understand that this is completely bullshit.

[Charlie]

What he means is that he's pissed off at Sony for delaying the PS3 in Europe.

[Caris]

Hell, even its best games, like Mario, Zelda and Metroid, wouldn’t really qualify as hardcore

How can a "gamer" say something like this, no matter how much you hate the rival system...

[blender]

This article is just flamebait. Don't fall for it.

[jakeee]

In my opinion, a hardcore gamer isn't a Sony/Microsoft/Nintendo fanboy. He/she likes a game as long as it's fun and good.

And I think Juan isn't a hardcore gamer :)

[mcj metroid]

lol someone got ratty.i wonder what was said to him?waahhhhh ign ps3 has been delayed.

[Pit-Jr]

i thought Juan ran the PSP channel. I dont see the big deal with his comments, its just a matter of perception. Im sure hell have his very own Wii on launch day just like the rest of us.

I do think that the labeling of video game players as hardcore, casual, or 'non' is both ridiculous and immature though. Nintendo's target is 'people who play video games and have money', just like Sony's and MS

[The Bard]

Why are people even concerned about this? It's his opinion. Obviously it's misinformed seeing as he doesn't see Zelda, Mario and Metroid as hardcore games, but it happens, he's just being naturally defensive. I daresay many of us did the same when gamecube failed to sell.

[Cube]

“How is the Wii the only right choice for gamers? Contrary to what you believe, Wii games for the most part ignore “hardcore” gamers. Just look at its lineup. It’s filled with games like Elebits, Super Monkey Ball, Duck Hunt and Excite Truck.

So, new and unique is not for hardcore gamers? Neither is stuff related to NES games? Or a fantastic game too difficult for non-hardcore gamers to get anywhere near ton completing?

It has a handful of promising games, take Super Mario Galaxy and Wario Ware, but the rest hardly qualify as harcore,

And those 2 games alone beat the PS3's launch lineup.

PS3 has if that’s the point you want to make.

Some examples of these non-existent.

games would be nice. Hell, even its best games, like Mario, Zelda and Metroid, wouldn’t really qualify as hardcore.”

Just kill yourself now.

“The Wii may outsell it (PS3) at launch, but no one cares about those numbers…

So, now that the numbers aren't positive for Sony, they suddenly don't matter?

With the Wii, on the other hand, developers hesitate calling it a next-gen system now, which isn’t so hot…and this is something both hardcore and casual gamers will definitely notice.”

Um...Nintendo themselves aren't calling it Next-Generation. Its a New-Generation console.


Finally, why is something that is not officially classed a games console, be the main thing for hardcore gamers?

[Fierce_LiNk]

Does anyone else hate this whole hardcore gamer/casual gamer...thing? I mean, as long as you enjoy the game, that's fine, right?

[Sogyal]

....i thought playing game is to enjoy the fun of game (whatever type or platform they may be)a true gamer will play games that they enjoy

[The3rdChildren]

I love the console wars.

The fact remains, regardless of what Sony say about the Wii (I'm sure they probably made similar comments praising their failed PSP handheld), if Nintendo can see a DS-esque market performance with the Wii then something very magical is coming.

[Hero-of-Time]

I love the console wars.


QFT.
If it doesnt get out of hand you can get some pretty interesting discussions going on the forums regarding why people choose a "team" and support them no matter what.

[That Guy]

Does anyone else hate this whole hardcore gamer/casual gamer...thing? I mean, as long as you enjoy the game, that's fine, right?

Yeah, and if you actually refer to yourself as a 'hardcore gamer' the lenses in your glasses are probably bigger than your cock anyway.

For me, games are there for people to have fun with. Why does everything always have to be so serious? People swearing and god knows what. Play what you like, don't call someone a dick because they like something different to you.

Not really sure what my point was...

[Helmsly]

Does anyone else hate this whole hardcore gamer/casual gamer...thing? I mean, as long as you enjoy the game, that's fine, right?

absolutely Feirce_Link, I've always hated whole hardcore/casuals tags, I think it’s an awful way to label people who buy different games. I don’t know why someone’s choice in games, how many hours they spend gaming or how many reviews they read on the internet before buying it even matters as long as their having fun with it

I love the GTA games for example but they seem to always get this casual label put on it and “oh only chavs and people that want to be cool like those games” which is nonsense.

QFT.
If it doesnt get out of hand you can get some pretty interesting discussions going on the forums regarding why people choose a "team" and support them no matter what.

I don’t know…I’ve never read a single console war topic that’s been intelligent, its always cheap digs at a “rival” console that usually the person insulting has never played . A lot of the time its simply sour grapes, someone can’t even bare to cope with the fact that something they don’t own might possibly be good so they mindlessly bash it.

[Indie James]

Someone correct me if im wrong, but wasn't this guy a part of the nintendo group of IGN when he first started working there, then he went to the group who sort out the sony part of IGN?

[conzer16]

Was talking to a guy in The Sony Centre today about Sky HD and Sony Bravias etc when talk inevitably turned to the PS3 delay in Europe. He was furious!!! He basically lambasted SCEE for the delay saying that he was going to turn to Nintendo now without a shadow of a doubt!

[punchcard progamer]

It's a game where you can drive a car. Go out of a car. Beat down an old lady. And then steal a motorcykel.. That sounds about right :indeed:

Is the old lady the original owner of the motorcycle?

Hardcore is those who can be bothered with completing all this shit endless games with 30 hours++ of gameplay without getting bored.
Or play ikaruga with one hand on the head and a banana in the mouth.

Cassual is those who own a console because the media hypes it, and their friend bought it.

[Kazzahdrane]

Wow, lots of people here up on their high horses.

Casual Gamer: Someone who plays games occasionally just for something to do with a group of friends or to relax. Just the sort of people things like Brain Training and Nintendogs are aimed at (not that everyone can't enjoy these games).

"Hardcore" Gamer: Someone who spends a significant amount of their free time playing games, and will often be looking forward to a game some time before it is released. They also walk into games stores usually knowing what they want to buy, rather than to browse.

The industry needs both types to survive. Hardcore gamers are great for spreading news about games to their friends and family, and can often be counted on for some guaranteed sales. However, casual gamers is where the real money is made - which is why games like Nintendogs and Brain Training which are aimed at people who don't know much about games sell well, as opposed to say MS Flight Simulator games which are only advertised to people who are already likely to buy them.

[DCK]

So the Wii is a console for everybody and the PS3 is for the hardcore gamer - the 16-year old with purple skin due to lack of sun and too much acne, does bad in school, has no off line friends and uses his keyboard/PS2 controller as a pillow?

Yeah that's something to be proud of.

[Raven]

that ign roundtable was interesting... thanks Yenrug!

i will say that im not fussed about the comments made. people will always get aggressive when it comes to 'team competition', and thats all this boils down to. Juan barracks for Sony, and will be blind to any other team being half decent, even if its completely obvious.

as for the hardcore/casual gamer thing.... well i think its a matter of research. as mentioned earlier, if you are posting within this forum, you would possibly be considered 'hardcore'.
i consider anyone who will take the time to look up on the internet, buy a magazine... or whatever as hardcore... its research! anyone in this forum will know more about the next gen systems than most people. and no, im not implying that your glasses are bigger than your cocks.... :laughing:

console wars for me = good thing. keeps the market affordable and drivers the game developers to improve upon themselves. i dont have any arguements with people regarding consoles anymore, simply because i believe in 'each to their own' and 'everything has its own merits'.

oh, and i like Mark Ryan Sallee's comments in the roundtable. i also picked up that the playstation editors believed that 'all would be well'. quite amusing really.

[demonmike04]

As much as i disagree with him, i think nintendo are putting more effort into pleasing the casuals to the hardcores. It should be 50/50

Agree'd. Most of the games are just like a pick up and play a few minigames, turn off the Wii, go out.
Theres a few games which will please the hardcore crowd, game's with deep gameplay and etc. I personally dont care, as flink said, as long as its fun, who exactly cares?

I'd personally say a hardcore game is one were you can play by yourself for hours on end and still have mass enjoyment with it. Its becoming very difficult with this casual/hardcore shit as the gamers are mixing. They've always used this split as a marketing ploy, but its never right. Theres casual gamers buying the 360 and hardcore games, its hard to explain really, but I guess they only judge this divide by the amount of time you spend on average each week playing video games.

[gmanprime]

Why is it that nobody considers gta to be an inovation. It was ground breaking. Not to mention rediculusly fun, even if you are just runing around trying to get away for the millitary.

[Stefkov]

Why is it that nobody considers gta to be an inovation. It was ground breaking. Not to mention rediculusly fun, even if you are just runing around trying to get away for the millitary.
Yeah it was innovative, i loved trying to get away from the FBI then the army in gta 3 i think, but then they started t make too many, the same thing over again, different person, slightly different islands. (i have never played mario party so i aint sayigna nything about that)
I see why they bring out gta 3 onto the psp to sell some psps, but what i dontget is why they brin that psp game out on the ps2, even when its been released for years.
anyway why we talking about gta?
I consider myself a hardcore gamer, i keep up to date on news, i play games quite a but during my free time, etc etc.
so i dont care what some (may regret) ps2 fanboy's say.

[DanielTimothy]

I think the virtual console is as hardcore as it gets.

[pedrocasilva]

Listen, since you asked, I’ll tell you what I meant by hardcore. A game, to me, is hardcore when exceedingly difficult, appeals to a small section of the gaming public, and is obtuse in some way or another, whether through its mechanics or theme.

Metroid, Zelda and Mario are fantastic franchises that appeal to almost everybody. So, by my definition, which is the only one under attack, none of them qualifies.

And that’s all I’m going to say. There’s far too much to do (eating, shaving, watching episodes of Futurama) to spend significant time on any message board arguing about — honestly now — things that don’t matter.Source: http://gonintendo.com/?p=5510

What an ass. He think's he's hardcore with GT4, GTA: SA, RE4 (PS2 edition) and MGS3, (they are the highest rated games in IGN-PS2) and even worse, he thinks game's who appeal to a small public are the industry's driving force... talk about lack of arguments... PS2 is the biggest selling console this generation, thus it appealed to most casual-gamers, talk about hardcore.

So interpreting the merge of his two argumentations this past week... the sales of Wii this christmas don't matter because PS3 has harder-harcore games that appeal to a smaller groups of people?

I'd like to know what these games are, but I hope he's right, if he is... Wii will simply sell better. I mean... there's nothing more mainstream than PS2... If he wants games who appealed to a small comunity, I'd advise him to look into the GC library.

I'd like to know since when is Metroid Prime appealing to everyone, he mustn't have played it nor it's sequel... I'd pay to see this ass playing Ikaruga, if all he wants are dificult games, but I doubt he can get past level one.

I love how he runs after saying all that, saying he has a life unlike the forum posters, well Juan Castro, you're a very, very sad man.

[Raven]

agreed@Pedro

he is now totally contradicting himself.
it sounds like a hardcore game is one that not many people play.... heh, and by my definition that would make it a shit game!

by his definition, super monkey ball is hardcore, as would spongebob squarepants. which im sure is a VERY obscure game of which a small section of the gaming community (4 year olds) play.

he is just backpeddling guys. probably doesnt like it when so many people question his ideas, this assumably comes with working for ign.

[Jack]

The real question is:
What is a hardcore gamer?

We already had that discussion. It basically ended with me calling everyone a c**t. Cest la vie.

[dukegaliz]

You're either a gamer or not, that is all.

[Jamba]

You're either a gamer or not, that is all.

The fact that that question even has to be asked is the problem with the industry. Can't wait til the day when everyone plays.

[Pit-Jr]

lol at the IGN mailbag
http://psp.ign.com/mail/

[The3rdChildren]

I've been thinking, and could it not be considered that there are more normal gamers/non-gamers than the so-called hardcore? And wasn't Nintendo's planned strategy with the DS and Wii to attact non-hardcore gamers into the industry?

They seem to have done something right with the DS, so maybe it'll repeat itself with the Wii. I see no reason why it wouldn't.

[Eenuh]

I find the term hardcore gamer kinda silly. I'm a gamer. I play the games I want to play, when I want to play them. That might mean I have nothing to play for a couple of days or even weeks, cause there's nothing out there that interests me (or I have no money). So does that make me less of a gamer?

Hardcore I think are the people who, even more than other gamers, are obsessed with videogaming. They love games so much and their extensive collection and knowledge of the games shows that (I know someone like that ='3 ). Hardcore doesn't have anything to do with what kind of games you play; that's just something called taste.

[pedrocasilva]

I find the term hardcore gamer kinda silly. I'm a gamer. I play the games I want to play, when I want to play them. That might mean I have nothing to play for a couple of days or even weeks, cause there's nothing out there that interests me (or I have no money). So does that make me less of a gamer?

Hardcore I think are the people who, even more than other gamers, are obsessed with videogaming. They love games so much and their extensive collection and knowledge of the games shows that (I know someone like that ='3 ). Hardcore doesn't have anything to do with what kind of games you play; that's just something called taste.I agree, to me a hardcore player is someone who is above all, capable of playing all kinds of games without bitching about them being hardcore or not, games are about being fun anyway, it's stupid to refuse to play a game like... Nintendogs just because "I'm badass, I'm a hardcore gamer" if he never played them before... how does he know? How can he badmouth it? it's just childish

A hardcore gamer should be at least capable of judging a game for what it is, and not for what it isn't; and able to distingish things, a game like this might be great for it's target public, that's what it matters, because if it does, it is a good game.

I'm sure he never even played Metroid Prime judging from his "opinion", Metroid Prime is hardly appealing to a broad audience range, I love it, but I can see that.

Zelda has extra quests and lots of stuff for those gamers who want to get 100% out of their games, this is not for the casual gamer, same for Super Marios, where you can complete the game with X stars but there's always easily double of that to achieve 100%.

[AshMat]

I was on some crappy forums once, and someone who was a playstation fan started saying "im a hardcore gamer, so i don't like the DS, etc, etc"

The term "hardcore gamer" is very loosely used.

[Mokong X-C]

I'd say the Wii is something "hardcore" gamers have been waiting so long for, a new way to play, something to invigrate the games industry and breath new life of fresh air into it.

Anyone who's "afraid" of it, is afriad of change.... or lazy

People have been "hoping" one day we may actually get "virtual reality" games like in sci-fi films, guess what the Wii the quite possibly the firs step in that direction

[YenRug]

"A hardcore gamer is someone who doesn't have to claim they are one."

I think that would would reveal most casual gamers, very quickly.

[Patch]

hardcore = enthusiast. Simple.

[ZeldaFreak]

Actuaually the Wii is no way close to being a VR thing even if you had the headset.

There are two types of VR, one where the game is played in your subconsciousness.(sp??)

And the other beinmg with the heatshet and only a couple of buttons are used.

I have always thougt of Nintendo games as more games that would appeal to casual gamers. Like I class Resident Evil as Hardcore because people who arn't into games would pick it up

[Raven]

i know someone who is truly a hardcore gamer!
i went to this games comp, and he got beaten in the first round and then became incredibly depressed about it. apparantly his life had lost meaning.

wait!!! thats not hardcore! thats just sad!

anyway. id post more on this but im too hungry to argue a point either way... guess that means im not hardcore because im not getting worked up enough about it....

[knightendo]

lol at the IGN mailbag
http://psp.ign.com/mail/

that is just SAD beyond belief rofl!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

[YenRug]

that is just SAD beyond belief rofl!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

I'm not sure if it was Juan Castro who did that, there seems to be a lot of ribbing about Juan "Hardcore" Castro from the other editors. As an example, from the "Swag Hunter" on IGN Insider:

Swag Giveaway
Want to get your grubby little hands on some of the amazingly rare items featured in this week's Swag Hunter? Well, now you too can live the impossible dream. Seeing as the monetary value of these items is fairly high, we only feel confident giving this stuff away to the biggest IGN fans out there. Prove your dedication to IGN through some sort of visual representation (photo, video, hilarious animated gif, etc.). Impressive displays of Photoshop prowess featuring Mr. Hardcore himself, Juan Castro, will be given extra special consideration.