Scottish/Welsh/Cornish independence

[navarre]

The purpose of this thread is to find out whether or not you believe that Scotland, Wales or even Cornwall should attain independence from the United Kingdom.

It is my personal belief that they shouldn't- I love the security of living in a big country, and each individual country has benefitted from the union.

Discuss.

[Eddage]

Cornwall rocks, my dad is Cornish...

That's all I have to add, sorry :heh:

[JonSt]

We are one united country. That is how it should stay.

[Cube]

As a Welshman (even though I'm English and am currently living in England...I still see myself as Welsh) I'm against it. I don't really see what the big problem is - the individual governments still get say in a number of things (like perscriptions and univerity fees).

[Shino]

The purpose of this thread is to find out whether or not you believe that Scotland, Wales or even Cornwall should attain independence from the United Kingdom.

It is my personal belief that they shouldn't- I love the security of living in a big country, and each individual country has benefitted from the union.

Discuss.

Funny, I love the security of living in a small country far away from any trouble.

What about the Northern Irish? Seem more of a candidate for independence than Cornwall. I never knew Cornwall had ever been independent or desired too.

[RoadKill]

Funny, I love the security of living in a small country far away from any trouble.

What about the Northern Irish? Seem more of a candidate for independence than Cornwall. I never knew Cornwall had ever been independent or desired too.

You've clearly never been to Cornwall. People with Cornish flags everywhere

[S.C.G]

Cornwall rocks

Seconded, Cornwall owns... no prizes for guessing where I live. :heh:

[Cube]

Seconded, Cornwall owns... no prizes for guessing where I live. :heh:

Scotland ?

[Wesley]

This kind of nationalism pisses me off. Screw any country that decides (through proper voting) to seperate. Have fun struggling.

[Emasher]

Very similar situation with Quebec and Canada. It goes something like this. Quebec wants money. Quebec says they're leaving. The federal government gives them money. Quebec wants more money. Quebec stays to get more money.

[S.C.G]

Scotland ?

Och aye... I mean erm Oh arr, no ye 'cakey bugger! :heh:

This kind of nationalism pisses me off. Screw any country that decides (through proper voting) to seperate. Have fun struggling.

I don't necessarilly think Scotland and Cornwall should be seperate officially but if you've ever been to Cornwall then you'll know that we at least think of this place as being seperate, it almost is like a different country in some respects tbh lol.

[stuwii]

Funny, I love the security of living in a small country far away from any trouble.

What about the Northern Irish? Seem more of a candidate for independence than Cornwall. I never knew Cornwall had ever been independent or desired too.

And let it go to shit like before?

[MoogleViper]

And let it go to shit like before?

I don't think he was suggesting that it should. Just saying that it was missed off of the debate and the most sensible choice geographically.

[stuwii]

I don't think he was suggesting that it should. Just saying that it was missed off of the debate and the most sensible choice geographically.

True, out of interest why did the troubles not spread to Ireland

[MoogleViper]

True, out of interest why did the troubles not spread to Ireland

What troubles do you mean? The IRA?

[Paj!]

No no no.

No one needs independance, no one is under oppresion, everything is better as is. End of, close thread thankbai.

[The Bard]

I have this joke with my Cornish friend at uni that Devon and Cornwall are basically analagous to the confederate states in the US. They even have their own fucking flag. It's only a matter of time.

[Jonnas]

Funny, I love the security of living in a small country far away from any trouble.


Amen :)

Anyway, I'm usually against a country splitting. That goes for the UK and Spain as well.

[stuwii]

What troubles do you mean? The IRA?

Basically the sole reason of the troubles was catholics v protestants. Not only place were this exists

[nightwolf]

I don't honestly care all that much, as long as it's a peaceful seperation and I can still continue to go to uni. Then let them. Although it seems odd to let cornwall over ireland..

[Raining_again]

Basically the sole reason of the troubles was catholics v protestants. Not only place were this exists

But its the most prominent and well known.

Oh and the arseholes not only hate the "other side" but they hate what they consider foreigners. When I moved here (northern ireland) we had to be quite stealth about it because my father was in the RAF (posted from Scotland) We had to get the car reg plate changed to a local one, phone is to this day ex-directory, and doesn't appear when you ring someone. It was quite scary.

Northern Ireland's a bit neither here nor there. Dunno if independence would be a good thing really. Things here (in my area anyway) seem to have settled. If we rejoined the south, Its pretty certain that the troubles will multiply tenfold.

[Rick Dangerous]

Its a bit pointless becoming independant unless they left the EU too (which I guess they wouldnt do) as a fair amount of law comes from european directives now.

[navarre]

I have this joke with my Cornish friend at uni that Devon and Cornwall are basically analagous to the confederate states in the US. They even have their own fucking flag. It's only a matter of time.


Every county in England has its own flag.

The Cornish independence movement has too little support. Most Cornish folk don't even see Cornwall as a country.

[S.C.G]

Every county in England has its own flag.

The Cornish independence movement has too little support. Most Cornish folk don't even see Cornwall as a country.

True, it isn't, it's just that Cornwall is a place that's heavilly traditionalised(sp) and that's maybe why some think it is a country in itself but it really isn't. :heh:

[navarre]

True, it isn't, it's just that Cornwall is a place that's heavilly traditionalised(sp) and that's maybe why some think it is a country in itself but it really isn't. :heh:

Are you native Cornish (ie were you born there?)? It's always interesting to recieve others opinions.

No one needs independance, no one is under oppresion, everything is better as is. End of, close thread thankbai.

Exactly. I think it was a while back that an advocate for the Falklands Islands independence (or secession to Argentina), on this very forum, was comparing the situation to Tibet. They failed to see why people here complained about Tibet's invasion when we had control over a group of islands that Argentina wanted. They also failed to see that the Falkland Islands were a British overseas territory populated by Brits that enjoy a range of freedoms from religion to democracy whereas Tibet was an unlawful invasion of a province where the population were Tibetans, and are suppressed on issues like religion and democracy. If no one's being suppressed or oppressed, then independence is mostly redundant, especially in the case of Scotland, where most supporters for indepedence are just nationalists with too much pride.

[stuwii]

But its the most prominent and well known.

Oh and the arseholes not only hate the "other side" but they hate what they consider foreigners. When I moved here (northern ireland) we had to be quite stealth about it because my father was in the RAF (posted from Scotland) We had to get the car reg plate changed to a local one, phone is to this day ex-directory, and doesn't appear when you ring someone. It was quite scary.

Northern Ireland's a bit neither here nor there. Dunno if independence would be a good thing really. Things here (in my area anyway) seem to have settled. If we rejoined the south, Its pretty certain that the troubles will multiply tenfold.


Why the fuck would you move to a war zone

[Raining_again]

Are you native Cornish (ie were you born there?)? It's always interesting to recieve others opinions.



Exactly. I think it was a while back that an advocate for the Falklands Islands independence (or secession to Argentina), on this very forum, was comparing the situation to Tibet. They failed to see why people here complained about Tibet's invasion when we had control over a group of islands that Argentina wanted. They also failed to see that the Falkland Islands were a British overseas territory populated by Brits that enjoy a range of freedoms from religion to democracy whereas Tibet was an unlawful invasion of a province where the population were Tibetans, and are suppressed on issues like religion and democracy. If no one's being suppressed or oppressed, then independence is mostly redundant, especially in the case of Scotland, where most supporters for indepedence are just nationalists with too much pride.

Agree with it all. Kudos dude. This is what I think I was trying to say earlier. :heh:


Stuwii.. wtf... srsly... MY DAD WAS IN THE FORCES.

[mcj metroid]

Funny, I love the security of living in a small country far away from any trouble.

What about the Northern Irish? Seem more of a candidate for independence than Cornwall. I never knew Cornwall had ever been independent or desired too.

haha you said that in northern ireland chances are a lot of them would kill you :)

Northern Ireland will never happen.. The very suggestion of it would restart a war more or less.

[Raining_again]

haha you said that in northern ireland chances are a lot of them would kill you :)

Northern Ireland will never happen.. The very suggestion of it would restart a war more or less.

*nods*

Pretty much! I'm no way against Ireland becoming a whole for any reason other than this. I have no issues with people from the south. Love the accent :D

[mcj metroid]

Basically the sole reason of the troubles was catholics v protestants.

no religion had nothing to do with it..(note it's the same fucking religion really)

it's al about land.. it always is.. nationalist and unionist..
People from the north would know a hell of a lot more about this than I would now mind you.

[Shino]

haha you said that in northern ireland chances are a lot of them would kill you :)

Northern Ireland will never happen.. The very suggestion of it would restart a war more or less.

*nods*

Pretty much! I'm no way against Ireland becoming a whole for any reason other than this. I have no issues with people from the south. Love the accent :D

I think something has to happen for that kind of mentality to change. I've watched tv programs about it were foreign immigrants get treated like trash just walking down the street.

[mcj metroid]

I think something has to happen for that kind of mentality to change. I've watched tv programs about it were foreign immigrants get treated like trash just walking down the street.
I'm sure sure of the how much of that would be true... That sort of happens everywhere..

I always found people in the north to be... well colder most anyway.. it really is a totally different country to the south.

the mentality should change though. But it probably won't been going on for nearly 100 years now the troubles really.

[Raining_again]

I think something has to happen for that kind of mentality to change. I've watched tv programs about it were foreign immigrants get treated like trash just walking down the street.

but the thing is while there are these people around, their children will learn that ignorant behaviour and it will continue forever. Passed through the generations

Its disgusting behaviour. One of my college friends got his head kicked in when he walked into the wrong territory (which also happened to be outside a police station) and he now has a couple of plates in his jaw. Wasn't able to eat solids for a year.

[Mundi]

Personally I would say just stick it together but I know so little about the area and the politics over there.
As far as the conflicts in Ireland the only thing I know related to it was that Michael Collins was a pretty good film.
Which makes me pretty stupid about all this.

Funny, I love the security of living in a small country far away from any trouble.

Amen :)

Oh hey guys how´s it going down there :Þ

[martinist]

I'm not really for this whole indaprendance thing, its alot easier just being one big couintry >_>:

[Jimbob]

It seems totally pointless for any of them places to become independent. Past Kings/Queens have fought tirelessly to bring these countries into one to form the United Kingdom and look how well that is.

[S.C.G]

Are you native Cornish (ie were you born there?)? It's always interesting to recieve others opinions.


I am indeed, 100% Cornish through and through... *chews on a long piece of grass whilst drinking still farm-brewed cider* :heh:

*Disclaimer - the statement highlighted in asterix's may not actually be completely truthful, indeed at time of writing pasta was chewed and cider was drunk but of the sparkling Olde English variety.



Its disgusting behaviour. One of my college friends got his head kicked in when he walked into the wrong territory (which also happened to be outside a police station) and he now has a couple of plates in his jaw. Wasn't able to eat solids for a year.

That's disgraceful :( I can't believe that someone would do that to another person just because of where they come from, it's inhuman and sickening >< and now your friend has to live with those plates in his jaw due to the ignorant attitudes and frankly feral actions of the people who did that to him. :/

[McPhee]

Welsh independance? Not a chance. It's a daydream thought up by nationalists, it's not in the slightest bit viable. Scottish independance on the other hand is very much possible though other than the Scottish Parliament having more control and it's place on the world stage i'm really not sure what advantages it'll give. Scotland's economy is strong enough for it to support itself and in theory it *might* result in better public spending, it all depends on how successful they are at broadening their economy once independant.

To be honest i've never quite understood why it's only the Scots who want Scotland to be independant. Thanks the the awkward way the Union is set up Scotland has a lot of power over England. More money goes in to Scotland than goes out of it (to the extent where Scotland isn't actually in recession, unlike the rest of the UK) and Scotish MPs sitting in Westminster have power over English laws but not the other way around (the West Lothian Question, the MP of West Lothian can vote on matters affecting (as an example) Blackburn, Lancashire, but the MP of Lancashire can't vote on matters concerning Blackburn, West Lothian).

If it does happen i feel sorry for England and Wales really. It'll be England that foots the rather costly bill to brake up the Union (the Scottish parliament is in control of matters of Union, it regained this right in 1707 when the countries merged. I somehow doubt Scotland will be paying much and anything they do pay will be from stockpiled English money).

It seems totally pointless for any of them places to become independent. Past Kings/Queens have fought tirelessly to bring these countries into one to form the United Kingdom and look how well that is.

Not quite how it went about. James VI of Scotland inherited the English throne and then brought about the "Union of the Crowns", forever sealing England (by 'England' I mean what we now know as England, Wales and Ireland) and Scotland under one Monarch. The nations remained seperate, they just had the same Monarch.

The union came about a long while after. Scotland was desperate to be able to compete with Europe's great trade Empires of England, France, Spain and Austria but they didn't have the resources to do so. There were very few valuable exports from the country and they had no colonies worth mentioning. They came up with the hair brained scheme of creating a canal through Panama (brilliant idea but too early, it took another few hundred years before it was managed successfully) to give them a fast trade route between Europe and Asia. It failed badly, losing them £400,000 (a fifth of the county's GDP). In a worse state than ever they went to England with the 'Acts of Union' and somehow persuaded them to sign. The result? Scotland got to rape England financially and politically for hundreds of years afterwards. England only signed up because Queen Anne was Scottish, meaning Scotland had the power to choose her successor. England was simply worried that Scotland might try and whore the position to other contries for money and other priveliges.

[My Buttons are Magic!]

Why the fuck would you move to a war zone

why the fuck would you say something so stupid?!

*am proud to be from northern ireland...
**nb i dont know much about why the troubles started
(ok so on further thought i kinda do - but i dont know specificis - i tend to stay out of stuff like that)
***i dont even know why the 12th july is really celebrated (bad protestant!)...
****really dont want the troubles to start again.... (the shooting in antrim n stuff scared the crap outta me)

i consider myself irish even tho technically im british... or northern irish?! ...
right before my internet connection diets on me...
EDIT 2!!

so technically im not too bothered about the seperation from the south or joining the mainland....

.. i dont feel a connection to the south of ireland (dont know any irish, wouldnt call my children silly irish names)... but i dont feel a mighty connection to the mainland...

so im happy being northern ireland

EDIT 3!!!

obviously my internet connection died on me it didnt diet :P....

.. and im not northern ireland.. im northern irish....


AND...dont people say stupid comments because i dont like swearing but i will :p

[The fish]

no religion had nothing to do with it..(note it's the same fucking religion really)


I reckon it is, actually - Ireland is very, very Catholic, even in its constitutaion.

[mcj metroid]

I reckon it is, actually - Ireland is very, very Catholic, even in its constitutaion.

That's the south.. and no we're not VERY catholic.. yes generally but not really enforced.. most young people don't bother going to mass even.. about the same as england really..

but in the north is a protestant majority however.. but protestants usually = unionists and catholic = nationlists..

But it's a secretarian thing and I really don't think religion had anything to do with it... It's an excuse it's like everytime there is a war.. religion rarely has anything to do with anything..


Again though I would be glad to be pointed out wrong and I don't know much about this stuff and only stating what I understand.

[mariosmentor]

Probably asking for trouble here but I'd like independence for Scotland.

It might be hard to understand but it's alot of little things. Businesses, politics, armed forces even Scottish tv is controlled down south. Now it's getting to the point where the few Scottish shows that do play are getting pulled off now because England has cut the budgets. England National Anthems playing in stores during world cups(even if Scotland's qualified aswell) our armed forces are not our armed forces, they are controlled by London if we ever went to war. So even if we don't agree we obliged to fight.

The north oil reserves which make a ton(bout 10 billion a year I think) then we are seen as the blame for the entire NHS budget problems for the whole union. The plans to build a whole bunch of nuclear power plants up here when Scotland is one of the best places in Europe to harvest green energy from tides and hydro-electric plants, enough for 1/4 of Europe after a quick google. (and pay for the nuke plants I might add even though we do not want them. We are to pay 76 million *Edit sorry actually it's 20 billion to start with and up to 76 in total. quite a different sum altogether* because the Americans want Trident renewed even though it fckin poisons our water!)

And the history is quite thick too, the uninformative "Braveheart" aside. We were invaded, a desire for England to rule all of the British Isles and even after peace treaties were signed England still invaded years later regardless due to feeling "humiliated" at Scots have their independence(not making it up humiliated English lords demanded another invasion). In the end it's also debatable that Scots in power were bribed to bless and force the Union, even though it is suggested that the majority of the public was outspoken against it. Rabbie Burns even wrote a poem about it.

So the root of our Union seems to lie in dishonesty and forceful tactics which doesn't help things. Now with wars and politicians/bankers running amok with our(and yours I'm not saying that!) money it seems like a good idea to be ourselves and leave us the hell alone, all we wanted in the first place!

Another factor is that right now Scotland is more of a joke country than anything. We are led to believe we are our own country and have real say/power but really we have no control over anything. The only thing we get is a big fancy faux parliament that sits around and probably has no more say in getting chewing gum off the streets than any real legislations or decisions. London handles our big decisions but then what do a bunch of guys in Westminster know about Scottish life?

One last thing. England is arm in arm with America. The biggest warmongering nation on the planet. That scares me. Criticism of Iraq/Afganistan is quite outspoken here, if we had a choice, a vote I don't think Scotland would have went to that sham war. The Scottish debt aswell, from all that oil that goes down south we get back the smallest fraction yet the Scottish debt to England rises every year. Hows that then?


That's my 2 cents guys say what you want.

TBH alot of ignorance is part of it aswell. People bashing Irish, Welsh and Scottish independence as a joke because we couldn't handle it is not only hurtful, demeaning to a society but probably racist. Why would we want to be part of a nation like that?

The government trying to quell independence and even trying to work around the North sea oil reserves so that if independence did come England would own them does not instil a great deal of respect for the Union.

[Haden]

Cornwall independent? The fuck?

Their economy would utterly bomb, Wales and Scotland would be bad enough but Cornwall dear god. Having to maintain their own bureaucracy, state services and army would kill them. They are already in decline as it is.

Dont want to bash the place though very nice to visit and has a cool flag.

[Paj!]

Just...please. No.

There's no need for Scotland. It just makes it more likely for war between England and Scotland more likely.

[mariosmentor]

What the hell? Why would we war?!

Only wars today are wars of profit, and I think it's fair to say that Scotland doesn't have the forces anyway for a war on England, so we wouldn't start anything.

Would you?

[Paj!]

Not saying that a war is gonna happen, but it just pointlessly divides us, were there a war. We're just stronger as one, aren't we?

I admitedly don't know all the facts, but it just seems a bit nitpicky as an idea, Scottish idependance, and more just bitterness about events long before anyone was born.

[Haden]

This isnt the 19th century there wouldn't be a war. But Scotland would be fucked economically.

[mariosmentor]

And I take it South Ireland is in all sorts of hell and pain right now at not being in the union?

Ack nvm, everybody here seems to be hardcore unionists.

[Shino]

No country gets fucked economically just for being small.

What I find rather disturbing in mariosmentor post is the complete lack of national identity on what a de facto country known as the UK and not Scotland or England. Its everyone's money and I believe the votes in Scotland are worth as much as the votes in England so it works much like any country with several regions.

[mariosmentor]

London(Corrected, I generalized England when really I only experienced London's attitude to Scottish pound) won't even accept Scottish money. So much for that lol.

But yea lack of national identity as British you mean? I consider myself Scottish, and a majority in Scotland do. We have very much our own national identity, heritage and culture.
We are considered our own country you know, even if it doesn't feel like it.

Why is that paticularly disturbing?


Btw I don't want this to be interpreted as a hate England thing ignorance on either side is just as bad. My cuz's are English I could never hate them :P

[Cube]

England won't even accept Scottish money. So much for that lol.

I'm positive I've been given (and then spent) Scottish notes as change...

[mariosmentor]

Some places do accept them. But many places will reject them, even if you point out sterling on the note.

Especially London. I have never passed a note over a shop counter in London and my dad has to get any notes on him changed to English notes when he heads back down for work.

The law says you are supposed to accept it but many stores just don't. Dunno why not to be honest.

Thanks Columnar, at least someone's ok with at least one of my points.

[Columnar]

I totally agree with mariosmentor on this one.

I moved to Yorkshire last year and had a great deal of difficulty spending what remaining Scottish money I had without someone shouting 'Do we take SCOTCH money'! So much for being a UNITED Kingdom - all the money is the same no matter where it comes from. I'm not a raving Nationalist as my Dad and his family all hail from Lancashire but I consider myself Scottish first and foremost and I'm very proud of it. I guess we all just have strong opinions about this issue and must respect them.

[Raining_again]

I totally agree with mariosmentor on this one.

I moved to Yorkshire last year and had a great deal of difficulty spending what remaining Scottish money I had without someone shouting 'Do we take SCOTCH money'! So much for being a UNITED Kingdom - all the money is the same no matter where it comes from. I'm not a raving Nationalist as my Dad and his family all hail from Lancashire but I consider myself Scottish first and foremost and I'm very proud of it. I guess we all just have strong opinions about this issue and must respect them.

Same with northern Irish sterling too. Would be helpful if we all had a uniformed currency :indeed:

[Platty]

Most places in London accept Scottish and NI sterling. In some places they even take the Euro....

I came back from NI few months back with some notes. Burger king had no problem in taking them and neither did W H Smith :)

[Raining_again]

Most places in London accept Scottish and NI sterling. In some places they even take the Euro....

I came back from NI few months back with some notes. Burger king had no problem in taking them and neither did W H Smith :)

you came to N.I and didn't even visit the N.I n-europe crew?!

Shame on you :heh:

[mariosmentor]

Platty My dads being working there on off for 10 years and it has always been a problem for him.

And I'm serious when I say every time I visited (about 10 times) they have never once accepted my money, even when I have had no money otherwise and had to walk home. Taxi drivers have also given abuse (What the fuck is this mate...?" when giving them Scottish notes.

I suppose it is up to the individual teller, maybe once they hear the Scottish accent they check the money who knows But yea no one can tell me it doesn't happen.

[navarre]

London(Corrected, I generalized England when really I only experienced London's attitude to Scottish pound) won't even accept Scottish money. So much for that lol.


That's why it seems rather pointless as to why you Scots produce your own notes in the first place.

But yea lack of national identity as British you mean? I consider myself Scottish, and a majority in Scotland do. We have very much our own national identity, heritage and culture.
We are considered our own country you know, even if it doesn't feel like it.

So? How does that justify independence? 'We've got our own identity and heritage'? Good for you, but how is that an argument against the union? Does being in the United Kingdom suddenly render that culture and heritage redundant? If so, it's a pretty weak culture you have there.


Btw I don't want this to be interpreted as a hate England thing ignorance on either side is just as bad. My cuz's are English I could never hate them :P

And that's exactly why being independent would be impratical. With around half of Scotlands population having relatives in England, does it really make sense to create a political border to make travel between the two countries harder?

[mariosmentor]

50% of Scots live in Canada. Should we unite with them too?(Because of the Highland clearances coincidently, that borders on genocide and ethnic cleansing for historians)

National Identity was a response to why I refer to myself as Scottish, not an argument exactly for independence. Do none of you refer to yourself as English?

Using the logic of Scottish notes being redundant then you should be backing the crossover to the Euro. And then our currency would also be controlled by London which would mean we would be feeling the full whack of the recession, which we do feel. Jobs are being lost up here too.

Sometimes I think I would have a better response here if I said I supported the BNP or something...

[navarre]

50% of Scots live in Canada. Should we unite with them too?(Because of the Highland clearances coincidently, that borders on genocide and ethnic cleansing for historians)


What a pathetic argument. Aside from the obvious geographical, political and historical boundaries that would make such a union impossible, you've clearly missed my point.

National Identity was a response to why I refer to myself as Scottish, not an argument exactly for independence. Do none of you refer to yourself as English?

Actually, I refer to myself as 'human', but if not that, it would be British.

Using the logic of Scottish notes being redundant then you should be backing the crossover to the Euro. And then our currency would also be controlled by London which would mean we would be feeling the full whack of the recession, which we do feel. Jobs are being lost up here too.

What? Because I think that all sterling notes should look the same, I somehow endorse the Euro? How does that work? And stop complaining about being controlled by London; it's merely a location. If I were ruled by Edinburgh with an English Prime Minister and English MPs to represent me, I wouldn't mind.

Sometimes I think I would have a better response here if I said I supported the BNP or something

No one's insulting you. The only reason you're not getting a 'better response' is because people don't agree with you.

[danny]

There is so much wrong with what you have said its hard to even begin.

It might be hard to understand but it's alot of little things. Businesses, politics, armed forces even Scottish tv is controlled down south. Now it's getting to the point where the few Scottish shows that do play are getting pulled off now because England has cut the budgets. England National Anthems playing in stores during world cups(even if Scotland's qualified aswell) our armed forces are not our armed forces, they are controlled by London if we ever went to war. So even if we don't agree we obliged to fight.

Having spent a large ammount of time in scotland i happen to know if you did get independance people from glasgow would complain about all the above but just change london to edinburgh. also the armed forces are controlled by the govenment and who is in charge? yes a scot so i dont really see your point.

The north oil reserves
Read north sea not scottish sea. And its mostly drilled by foreign companys as well.

The plans to build a whole bunch of nuclear power plants up here when Scotland is one of the best places in Europe to harvest green energy from tides and hydro-electric plants, enough for 1/4 of Europe after a quick google. (and pay for the nuke plants I might add even though we do not want them. We are to pay 76 million *Edit sorry actually it's 20 billion to start with and up to 76 in total. quite a different sum altogether* because the Americans want Trident renewed even though it fckin poisons our water!)


It is very debatable as to how much green energy can be produced in the UK. Nuclear energy gives us power no questions. Im from cumbria we already have nuclear power and were going to get more. Its not just scotland you know.
As for triedent look at my avatar im in the Navy have you been to Faslane? Have you seen how many people that employs? Have you spoken to any of the thousends who have good high quality jobs? Do they want trident to leave scotland. No they dont because theres fuck all else.


And the history is quite thick too, the uninformative "Braveheart" aside. We were invaded, a desire for England to rule all of the British Isles and even after peace treaties were signed England still invaded years later regardless due to feeling "humiliated" at Scots have their independence(not making it up humiliated English lords demanded another invasion). In the end it's also debatable that Scots in power were bribed to bless and force the Union, even though it is suggested that the majority of the public was outspoken against it. Rabbie Burns even wrote a poem about it.

So the root of our Union seems to lie in dishonesty and forceful tactics which doesn't help things. Now with wars and politicians/bankers running amok with our(and yours I'm not saying that!) money it seems like a good idea to be ourselves and leave us the hell alone, all we wanted in the first place!

Scotland wasnt exactly perfect when it came to this. And as for the union who was the king? If nothing else you got sold out by one of your own. Any way that was how mnay hundred years ago? Does it bear any meaning now?

Another factor is that right now Scotland is more of a joke country than anything. We are led to believe we are our own country and have real say/power but really we have no control over anything. The only thing we get is a big fancy faux parliament that sits around and probably has no more say in getting chewing gum off the streets than any real legislations or decisions. London handles our big decisions but then what do a bunch of guys in Westminster know about Scottish life?

Well dosent scotland vote for MPs just like everyone else? Scottish life? whats the fucks different about it? Apart from the fact people go around beating each other up because they wear a blue/green shirt? Its just like the rest of the UK scottish life is no different its just wetter and colder. its not mars.

One last thing. England is arm in arm with America. The biggest warmongering nation on the planet. That scares me. Criticism of Iraq/Afganistan is quite outspoken here, if we had a choice, a vote I don't think Scotland would have went to that sham war. The Scottish debt aswell, from all that oil that goes down south we get back the smallest fraction yet the Scottish debt to England rises every year. Hows that then?

Britain is arm in arm with america. And remember the PM is scottish (not for much longer mind). No matter what you might think of the Iraq war Afgahanistan is not Iraq and the future of the western world could very well depend on what happens there. Any body with any sense who has actually looked at the facts could not argue that Afghanistan should have been left to carry on down the road it was on.

Bassicaly Scotland needs to stop holding on to history and being petty. Im from northern england and many of the arguments you have given are used by people from here. And they would be used by people no matter what country you lived in. In my opinion they should just do away with the 4 countrys and make it just one country Britain. One football team, one govenment one everything.

[Shino]

Haha, so all that shit you give the euro because the pound somehow signifies the whole country's identity isn't even valid since you don't accept each other's notes? Let's see in my wallet I have 4 Portuguese coins, 3 Spanish and 1 French.

[mariosmentor]

Having spent a large ammount of time in scotland i happen to know if you did get independence people from glasgow would complain about all the above but just change london to edinburgh. also the armed forces are controlled by the govenment and who is in charge? yes a scot so i dont really see your point.

Why the hell would we complain about Edinburgh? It's our goddamn capital mate that doesn't make a lick of sense. A scot in power? You mean that sham of a man?


Read north sea not scottish sea. And its mostly drilled by foreign companys as well.


Yes it's in North sea I never said Scottish sea what the hell's you're point? Drilled by foreigners and they have to pay the UK for that, money we see very little of.


It is very debatable as to how much green energy can be produced in the UK. Nuclear energy gives us power no questions. Im from cumbria we already have nuclear power and were going to get more. Its not just scotland you know.
As for triedent look at my avatar im in the Navy have you been to Faslane? Have you seen how many people that employs? Have you spoken to any of the thousends who have good high quality jobs? Do they want trident to leave scotland. No they dont because theres fuck all else.


I have been to faslane you fool! My dad used to work there. (I know this keeps coming up lol) And I've done a documentary piece on the peace camps and rallies there. Yes it would mean job loses but how many jobs would in inclusion of Green energy production create? Plus Scotland voted NO on Nuclear power plants and was completely ignored. How's that for democracy.


Scotland wasnt exactly perfect when it came to this. And as for the union who was the king? If nothing else you got sold out by one of your own. Any way that was how mnay hundred years ago? Does it bear any meaning now?


Alot of Scottish folks are very deep rooted in their history and consider the Union and outdated entity which just isn't working mate. History shapes and changes society. Even your dismissal of our history shows how far our attitudes are apart.


Well doesn't Scotland vote for MPs just like everyone else? Scottish life? what's the fucks different about it? Apart from the fact people go around beating each other up because they wear a blue/green shirt? Its just like the rest of the UK Scottish life is no different its just wetter and colder. its not mars.


Man that's just incredibly ignorant. So we're all just a bunch of mindless thugs huh? Even though England's renowned for starting trouble abroad whereas the Tartan Army is mostly welcomed in any country?
We vote for MSP's but in our position we don't have a damn say in anything. We are vastly outnumbered our votes get local politicians elected but we have no say in world matters. Something that is becoming frequently more worrying as the current government continues to act on policies without our blessing, but that doesn't mean a damn thing. Such as Closing down A + E services in Scotland the only the SNP turned about.



Britain is arm in arm with america. And remember the PM is scottish (not for much longer mind). No matter what you might think of the Iraq war Afgahanistan is not Iraq and the future of the western world could very well depend on what happens there. Any body with any sense who has actually looked at the facts could not argue that Afghanistan should have been left to carry on down the road it was on.


Feel pride for a Scottish PM is damn shallow and hardly an excuse to stay with the system. The future world depends on how much oil they find because it will determine you gets the business ends of the US's foreign policy next.
If you cannot accept that people against the war are not a small minority, that it is actually quite a strong talking point among people who don't want to be blindly following their government in it's warmongering, then I shouldn't even be talking to you mate.

Afghanistan is a country that's been invaded by foreign powers foi the last 100 years or so. The country should just be left the hell alone and allowed to pick up the pieces rather than blown to fuck.

There you go mate calm down though. This doesn't feel like a discussing, more like "Shoot down anyone who supports Independence" though it was nice to hear something more than "We shouldn't give up the UK because it's the Status Quo"

I mean you can disagree with me but it feels like you're taking this personally.

What a pathetic argument. Aside from the obvious geographical, political and historical boundaries that would make such a union impossible, you've clearly missed my point.

Even though it was part of the British empire but nevermind.


What? Because I think that all sterling notes should look the same, I somehow endorse the Euro? How does that work? And stop complaining about being controlled by London; it's merely a location. If I were ruled by Edinburgh with an English Prime Minister and English MPs to represent me, I wouldn't mind.


Because even if it was the other way around England would still have the majority vote. And I can tell you alot of people WOULD be pissed it that were the case. I really don't see why a unified sterling and a unified Euro are very much different. And yes London is completely out of touch with Scotland, the MP's down their act as if Scotland a burdern that needs to be pleased rather than actually trying to make a difference and improve the lifestyle. The huge amount of people living in poverty here is a clear example of that.
Scotland is just a bunch of statistics to the current government and the voices and opinions of Scots are leargely unheard.


No one's insulting you. The only reason you're not getting a 'better response' is because people don't agree with you.

Well maybe but then "what a pathetic argument" isn't exactly good manners is it?

[danny]

Afghanistan is a country that's been invaded by foreign powers foi the last 100 years or so. The country should just be left the hell alone and allowed to pick up the pieces rather than blown to fuck.

There you go mate calm down though. This doesn't feel like a discussing, more like "Shoot down anyone who supports Independence" though it was nice to hear something more than "We shouldn't give up the UK because it's the Status Quo"



Yeah we tried leaving Afghanistan the hell alone and that didnt work remember?????

No its a shoot down anyone who blambes England for every problem that scotland has. DO you not think so many of the thing you mention are felt in England as well?

[navarre]

. A scot in power? You mean that sham of a man?


Gordon Brown is doing an admirable job considering people such as yourself are constantly complaining about him, without truly knowing why. With the amount of bad publicity he's had, you'd think he's Hitler or something.

Yes it's in North sea I never said Scottish sea what the hell's you're point? Drilled by foreigners and they have to pay the UK for that, money we see very little of.

Oh yes, the dire poverty level in Scotland is abominable! You guys really need to reclaim the North Sea now, Scotland is looking like third world Africa!


Plus Scotland voted NO on Nuclear power plants and was completely ignored. How's that for democracy.


I voted for the Liberal Democrats in the European elections. They lost badly. It's called democracy when the majority wins.

Even though England's renowned for starting trouble abroad whereas the Tartan Army is mostly welcomed in any country?

England supporters hardly ever start trouble abroad, and it isn't just exclusive to England. Football hoolaginism was rife in Northern Ireland recently in a game against Poland, an example that comes to mind. Oh, and you guys aren't all that good at football, and don't take it as seriously.

Alot of Scottish folks are very deep rooted in their history and consider the Union and outdated entity which just isn't working mate

What a load of perennial crap: when the union has existed from 1707, and the idea of a Scottish nation has been around for thousands of years, I find it ironic and slightly amusing how you claim the union to be an outdated concept.

Afghanistan is a country that's been invaded by foreign powers foi the last 100 years or so. The country should just be left the hell alone and allowed to pick up the pieces rather than blown to fuck.

Oh yes, totally agree! We should just've let the Taliban continue to whip girls with an education to death, suppress every right that women enjoy in the West, fund terrorism and behead every man, woman and child that even considers breaking their twisted version of Sharia Law. one of the reasons that the Afghanistan invasion is far less controversial to the Iraq war is because it needed to happen for the benefit of the inhabitants of that country.

Because even if it was the other way around England would still have the majority vote. And I can tell you alot of people WOULD be pissed it that were the case. I really don't see why a unified sterling and a unified Euro are very much different. And yes London is completely out of touch with Scotland, the MP's down their act as if Scotland a burdern that needs to be pleased rather than actually trying to make a difference and improve the lifestyle. The huge amount of people living in poverty here is a clear example of that.
Scotland is just a bunch of statistics to the current government and the voices and opinions of Scots are leargely unheard.

That's because England has ten times the population of Scotland. If London is so out of touch with Scotland, I take you guys didn't really want a seperate education and health system and your own government? Too out of touch, eh?

Well maybe but then "what a pathetic argument" isn't exactly good manners is it?

Forgive me if my online etiquette isn't quite up to standards!

[Pookiablo]

Give the Scots their freedom, all they do is steal from our treasury and complain like the thick northern idiots that they are.

Sorry, not really like that but all the abuse from up north annoys me. There's a reason why the south controls everything - we're the ones with the money, constantly bailing out your pathetic asses.

Also, I've never had any problems with Scottish tender being accepted anywhere. Must be just because you come across as a nationalistic twat.

[McPhee]

Give the Scots their freedom, all they do is steal from our treasury and complain like the thick northern idiots that they are.

Sorry, not really like that but all the abuse from up north annoys me. There's a reason why the south controls everything - we're the ones with the money, constantly bailing out your pathetic asses.

Also, I've never had any problems with Scottish tender being accepted anywhere. Must be just because you come across as a nationalistic twat.

Money moves North at the moment because Scotland's economy can't support itself. Should the Union break apart though this will change. There's $3 Trillion worth of oil in the waters of the North Sea around Scotland, currently owned by the UK (and therefore London). By the rules set down in 1958 by the UK, Norway, Denmark, Holland and Germany the oil would belong to Scotland if the union ever ended (They didn't specifically discuss this, but they decided ownership is based on geographic location. Under the rules they agreed on this would make most of the Oil property of the Scottish government.). Ownership moving to Edinburgh would vastly increase the wealth of everyone north of the border.

Why do you think the Scots want independance? There'll be more money to go around (currently the GDP PP in Scotland is FAR lower than in England), they'll have greater political control and their own place on the World stage.

To be frank i find the attitudes of people in this thread disgusting and insulting. You know nothing about the situation so instead you throw about insults. Oh, and Pooki, have an infraction for that first comment you made. Twat.

[danny]

Money moves North at the moment because Scotland's economy can't support itself. Should the Union break apart though this will change. There's $3 Trillion worth of oil in the waters of the North Sea around Scotland, currently owned by the UK (and therefore London). By the rules set down in 1958 by the UK, Norway, Denmark, Holland and Germany the oil would belong to Scotland if the union ever ended (They didn't specifically discuss this, but they decided ownership is based on geographic location. Under the rules they agreed on this would make most of the Oil property of the Scottish government.). Ownership moving to Edinburgh would vastly increase the wealth of everyone north of the border.

Why do you think the Scots want independance? There'll be more money to go around (currently the GDP PP in Scotland is FAR lower than in England), they'll have greater political control and their own place on the World stage.

To be frank i find the attitudes of people in this thread disgusting and insulting. You know nothing about the situation so instead you throw about insults. Oh, and Pooki, have an infraction for that first comment you made. Twat.

You make the assumption that if the union did break up it would happen without england taking claim to some of this oil. Which would never happen. It would be like a divorce. The oil is going to run out in the next couple of decades then what for an independant Scotland?

[Pookiablo]

Money moves North at the moment because Scotland's economy can't support itself. Should the Union break apart though this will change. There's $3 Trillion worth of oil in the waters of the North Sea around Scotland, currently owned by the UK (and therefore London). By the rules set down in 1958 by the UK, Norway, Denmark, Holland and Germany the oil would belong to Scotland if the union ever ended (They didn't specifically discuss this, but they decided ownership is based on geographic location. Under the rules they agreed on this would make most of the Oil property of the Scottish government.). Ownership moving to Edinburgh would vastly increase the wealth of everyone north of the border.

Why do you think the Scots want independance? There'll be more money to go around (currently the GDP PP in Scotland is FAR lower than in England), they'll have greater political control and their own place on the World stage.

To be frank i find the attitudes of people in this thread disgusting and insulting. You know nothing about the situation so instead you throw about insults. Oh, and Pooki, have an infraction for that first comment you made. Twat.

First of all, it was a joke response (I did warn Tellyn over the n-e chat earlier) - mariosmentor was being a complete nob and I just found it funny. Do you honestly think I actually believe people are thick because they come from up north? Of course not, jesus I'm not Adolf Hitler. I was just trying to wind the guy up because of his ridiculous views, I don't need to go out of my way to insult him, he's already done that enough by himself by being a complete and utter idiot.

I'm all for a United Kingdom, and a United Europe for that matter, hence my current academic/career path being based in European law, politics and economics.

I wasn't pretending to be a know-it-all - no one in here knows the full situation. In response to the non-drivel part of your post (Yes, Mods can talk rubbish too you know), I did read from quite a few sources the other day that even if Scotland were independent and it did have control of the oil in the North Sea, it still wouldn't be financially secure. It goes both ways. Besides, the Scots do receive more money per head than us down in the South from the government in regards to public spending (it's around £1000 more), not to mention your university education system is free.

Also, cheers for the infraction, I'll frame it on my wall, bet you felt a great sense of pride dishing that one out! I love how you give me one for insulting another member and then opt to insult me yourself - so rational there, clearly you're just as stupid as all the other supposedly stupid people in this thread because of their "disgusting" views. People get wound over things like this and last time I checked, they are allowed to. Deal with it.

[McPhee]

So by your own admission you were flame baiting then? Fair enough, i'll remove the infraction for the insult and give you one for that instead. Happy? And i do understand the irony of calling you a twat, that's the exact sense in which it was meant.

A lot of figures on Scotland's independant economic position are confusing to be honest. It really doesn't help that most articles haven't been updated recently, they found a new oil field equaling at least 32 Billion barrels (roughly the amount that's been hauled out of the North Sea already) in February. Then there's the fact that RBS and Lloyd's Bank are both based in Edinburgh, to become independant Scotland would likely have to raise the capital to buy both banks from London.

As for this;

(Yes, Mods can talk rubbish too you know

What does me being a mod have to do with my opinion? I don't recall saying "accept that i'm right or i'll infract you all!" did I? No, i merely put forward my take on things (which has one hell of a lot more basis in fact than most of the posts so far in this thread).

You make the assumption that if the union did break up it would happen without england taking claim to some of this oil. Which would never happen. It would be like a divorce. The oil is going to run out in the next couple of decades then what for an independant Scotland?

If they did lay claim to it they'd have to get Norway, Denmark, Holland and Germany to agree to rewrite the ownership rules. Denmark, Holland and Germany might be interested, but not Norway (they already own most of the oil in the North Sea, no way they'll risk putting that up for discussion).

As for when the oil runs out, well what does $3 Trillion of investment over 30 years (the amount of time it'll take the oil to run out at current drill rates) buy you? Pre-banking crisis Edinburgh was one of the biggest financial services centers in Europe. It'll have recovered by then. There's also Silicon Glen where some of the biggest electronics and IT companies in Europe are based (along with some of Europe's leading Universities in these fields). Scotland is also tipped as the best place to farm tidal and wind energy in the whole of Europe. In 30 years time they could be exporting pure electricity rather than Oil and Petrolium.

The possibilities for people living up there are much better under an independent government. The country already has a pretty good GDP PP (turns out i read the wrong figure earlier, it's already higher in Scotland than in England by about $1000 per capita).

[Tellyn]

I confirm that El Pookiablo said it in jest, he warned me on the chat room fearing a virtual backhand from me. :heh:

[danny]

So by your own admission you were flame baiting then? Fair enough, i'll remove the infraction for the insult and give you one for that instead. Happy? And i do understand the irony of calling you a twat, that's the exact sense in which it was meant.

A lot of figures on Scotland's independant economic position are confusing to be honest. It really doesn't help that most articles haven't been updated recently, they found a new oil field equaling at least 32 Billion barrels (roughly the amount that's been hauled out of the North Sea already) in February. Then there's the fact that RBS and Lloyd's Bank are both based in Edinburgh, to become independant Scotland would likely have to raise the capital to buy both banks from London.

As for this;



What does me being a mod have to do with my opinion? I don't recall saying "accept that i'm right or i'll infract you all!" did I? No, i merely put forward my take on things (which has one hell of a lot more basis in fact than most of the posts so far in this thread).



If they did lay claim to it they'd have to get Norway, Denmark, Holland and Germany to agree to rewrite the ownership rules. Denmark, Holland and Germany might be interested, but not Norway (they already own most of the oil in the North Sea, no way they'll risk putting that up for discussion).

As for when the oil runs out, well what does $3 Trillion of investment over 30 years (the amount of time it'll take the oil to run out at current drill rates) buy you? Pre-banking crisis Edinburgh was one of the biggest financial services centers in Europe. It'll have recovered by then. There's also Silicon Glen where some of the biggest electronics and IT companies in Europe are based (along with some of Europe's leading Universities in these fields). Scotland is also tipped as the best place to farm tidal and wind energy in the whole of Europe. In 30 years time they could be exporting pure electricity rather than Oil and Petrolium.

The possibilities for people living up there are much better under an independent government. The country already has a pretty good GDP PP (turns out i read the wrong figure earlier, it's already higher in Scotland than in England by about $1000 per capita).

You seem to think only scotland would have a say in independance and the deal each side gets out of it. If you think england would let 3 trillion just go out the window for nothing then i think your on another plannet. That oil isnt scottish no matter what you think it the UKs and therefore it wouldnt be scottish after independance just because of its location.

[Sheikah]

Oh, and Pooki, have an infraction for that first comment you made. Twat.

I have to say, that's terribly amateur to dish out an infraction for something which you then went and did yourself.

[The fish]

And I take it South Ireland is in all sorts of hell and pain right now at not being in the union?

Ack nvm, everybody here seems to be hardcore unionists.

It, relatively, was until it joined the EU and got shit loads of help.

On the whole currency thing, the reason Scottish notes are often not accepted in smaller shops down here is because people aren't familiar with them, so it would be easy to pass a forged note off as a real one. Adopting the Euro would solve such issues.

[Shino]

It, relatively, was until it joined the EU and got shit loads of help.

I agree that the EU was awesome in giving a jump start to countries such as Ireland and Portugal, there are several small countries around the world that are more than capable.

[McPhee]

You seem to think only scotland would have a say in independance and the deal each side gets out of it. If you think england would let 3 trillion just go out the window for nothing then i think your on another plannet. That oil isnt scottish no matter what you think it the UKs and therefore it wouldnt be scottish after independance just because of its location.

That's pretty much what i said though. They'd have to renegotiate the rules of North Sea oil ownership with all of the concerned countries. I've no idea how that'd turn out, but i'd love to see someone try and convince the Norwegian government to sign off on something that says oil isn't necessarily the property of the nearest country. A cut of the profit is far more likely than a cut of the ownership, it's far easier to negotiate.

I don't expect the deal to go exactly as the SNP would want it either, there's plenty of sacrifices that'd have to be made. For a start Lloyds and RBS are property of the government these days. Scotland would have to buy them back, baring the brunt of their debt. This is money Scotland doesn't actually have and likely where an oil deal would start from.

Fairly moot discussion anyway. I'm more in favour of a properly united Great Britain. I favour Scottish independence over this current sham of a Union, but i'd much rather see Britishness be promoted and ties to old nations disolved. The Union is out dated and doesn't really serve much purpose these days, we're definitely not "Great Britain" at all. Stuff like the Bank of England needs to replaced with a Bank of Britain. Regional sports teams should be replaced by a British team. The English, Scottish and Welsh parliaments should be dissolved and a new one created in a different location (to remove the ties to the parliaments of the old nations).

[danny]

I agree with what you are saying except the moving of govenment to a new location. I think it would just be doing something for the sake of it rather than an actual need. Im from cumbria so having the govenment in edinburgh or newcastle would make it closer to me. But i dont think the move in location would change anything. I think it would make us a bit of a laughing stock. I have no great love for the south of england. But i have even less love for changing things just for the sake of it.
But i agree that devolution should be reversed. And im glad we never got the north west assy that was talked about. People seem to like them for some reason. But really they are just a waste of money. Money that would be much better spent actually improving things.

[McPhee]

I guess i'd only like to see a relocation of government because London is traditionally seen as the seat of the English parliament, but at the same time it'd be a silly waste of money to move it. Maybe distributing elements of it across the country would make people feel less like everything revloves around events 'down south'? A 'Bank of Britain' in Edinburgh, for example.

[Shino]

Brazil built a whole capital to avoid those kind of problems, I don't see the big problem in moving a parliament.

[navarre]

Why do you think the Scots want independance?


Because they have an irrational dislike of England, and are too proud?


There'll be more money to go around (currently the GDP PP in Scotland is FAR lower than in England), they'll have greater political control and their own place on the World stage.

Their own place on the world stage? A tiny nation of five million residents would be behind Poland on the world stage of influence. Scotland would have to raise its own armed forces (good luck at trying to rival the UKs armed forces though). The GDP is only lower than Englands because of its size and population, and GDP is only one way of measuring wealth.

I guess i'd only like to see a relocation of government because London is traditionally seen as the seat of the English parliament, but at the same time it'd be a silly waste of money to move it. Maybe distributing elements of it across the country would make people feel less like everything revloves around events 'down south'? A 'Bank of Britain' in Edinburgh, for example.
It makes sense to have the government located in London, the UKs biggest city, Europe's largest financial center and the UKs only true global city. But your idea of distribution of government isn't too bad- South Africa has three different capitals. Still, as previously said, London is just a location. Lots of people in this city aren't even English.

[McPhee]

Their own place on the world stage? A tiny nation of five million residents would be behind Poland on the world stage of influence. Scotland would have to raise its own armed forces (good luck at trying to rival the UKs armed forces though). The GDP is only lower than Englands because of its size and population, and GDP is only one way of measuring wealth.

GDP PP is GDP/Population. Not much difference between the figures for England and Scotland though really, the Scots are about £2k below.

And i think you'll find that the majority of Scots don't have an irrational dislike of England or the English. Certainly don't know anyone first-hand that hates English people (apart from a few Muslims, but that's a story for a different thread). You're thinking of North Wales there :p