The Current Affairs Thread [Archive]

Pyxis

10-01-2009, 12:35 PM

MoogleViper

10-01-2009, 01:05 PM

Didn't we already have a thread like this? http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22489 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)

Mundi

10-01-2009, 01:29 PM

This is going to end like every conflict in the Palestinian/Israel area, the other side taking revenge after the other side attacked in revenge after the other side took revenge and it goes on and on...

Attacking so ruthlessly will just create more soldiers for the future to keep the conflict going.

The fish

10-01-2009, 02:21 PM

Didn't we already have a thread like this? http://www.n-europe.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22489 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0)

Fuck you. :indeed:

I think Israel's actions have been justified, but its methods have been too imprecise. Still, there aren't any alternative options that don't result in Hamas continuing to fire/allow the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians.

Pookiablo

10-01-2009, 03:53 PM

I'm looking forward to seeing what Daft says about that demo he's gone to! nice to see a bit of activism!

nightwolf

10-01-2009, 04:05 PM

As my dad quoted before when we walked past a protest ''Honestly, who cares?''

Why do I say that? Because there was literally 30 people protesting at that point and everybody else was too wrapped up wanting to shop and get out of the cold to join in anyway.

If a peace settlement doesn't work and they continue to bomb children then i don't see what is going to work..too stubborn in their ways and being ridiculous! Like naughty children fighting! ''Oh but we didn't realise it was a UN building'' bollocks. Don't give us that crap, it has flags all over it.

I'd quite like it to end, after all the only people who suffer are the ones sat in their homes not wanting to fight!

Wesley

10-01-2009, 04:36 PM

Good luck to Israel. They shouldn't stop until its impossible for Hamas to fire rockets into their teritory and if this is what's needed, then so be it. I'm willing to turn a blind eye and let them sort this out once and for all because if Israel stops now, Hamas will continue firing rockets and killing innocent Israeli civilians.

There's no point in saying that the current situation is unfair or inhumane, because Hamas and Iran want the entire Israeli population to be exterminated. The Israelis are fighting for their existence, while the Palaestinians have been given many chances to have their own state but can't resist attacking the Israelis, who can and have defeated everybody who has messed with them. They've even sunk a US Navy ship in the past.

A good detailed news article:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0jtO9RjMwPNRoXNCndRPRq3gD95K9M600

Really? Good to them? Really? You're willing to turn a blind eye to a school full of innocent people being bombed because Hamas have attacked Israel? Wow. Nice. Eye for an eye and all for you then, eh?

Israel aren't fighting for their survival, because Palestine aren't a threat to it. And you're making out Israel have just handed Palestine their own state - which isn't including their original boundaries. Jesus, it's fact that Israel have over-stepped their boundaries and then to act surprised that Palestine rise up against them isn't exactly surprising. I'm not supporting the rocket fire coming from Palestine, but maybe instead of using Israeli tactics of "Let's destroy all those who oppose us." they should try and resolve why the rocket fire is coming in the first place. There's a difference between defending your country and attacking another.

You seriously sound proud at the end that they sank a US Navy ship - why? Why do you sound proud of that?

This situation makes me sick and ashamed of our government. The fact that we're unwilling to come out and fully condemn them is sicking and two-faced when considering our policies with other countries. This kind of tactic from Israel, killing innocent people and raping a nation will only further create tension from the Arab states.

The fish

10-01-2009, 04:53 PM

''Oh but we didn't realise it was a UN building'' bollocks. Don't give us that crap, it has flags all over it.

There's footage on LiveLeak of mortars being fired from within the school's grounds, apparently from about a month ago. Israel assembled a lit of targets which it appears to have prioritised and hit in that order. They have no way of gathering intelligence of greater accuracy at the moment.

The strike is entirely regrettable, but its reasoning is understandable.

nightwolf

10-01-2009, 04:54 PM

There's footage on LiveLeak of mortars being fired from within the school's grounds, apparently from about a month ago. Israel assembled a lit of targets which it appears to have prioritised and hit in that order. They have no way of gathering intelligence of greater accuracy at the moment.

Unless I'm being silly, surely this UN building would have still been established a month ago? Unless it's a new UN building?

The fish

10-01-2009, 05:00 PM

This situation makes me sick and ashamed of our government. The fact that we're unwilling to come out and fully condemn them is sicking and two-faced when considering our policies with other countries

Ok, this confuses me a little. You like our government to condemn Russia for using the Georgians' conflict with internal rebels as an excuse to cripple Georgia to a state in which it can't join NATO/EU, and you think they should do the same regarding a conflict which is entirely in self-defence.

Unless I'm being silly, surely this UN building would have still been established a month ago? Unless it's a new UN building?

It was a UN school back then, and it was being used by Hamas to fire on Israel.

You seriously sound proud at the end that they sank a US Navy ship - why? Why do you sound proud of that?

I think he's just demonstrating the lengths to which Israel will go to defend itself...

DomJcg

10-01-2009, 05:04 PM

See, the problem with this for other countries wanting to stop the conflict is that as will said, reasoning is understandable, no ones making a fuss (papers report the conflict, but don't comment on it) because as say.. Obama put it "if people were shooting rockets at my house i'd want to do something about it too"

Pyxis

10-01-2009, 06:33 PM

Really? Good to them? Really? You're willing to turn a blind eye to a school full of innocent people being bombed because Hamas have attacked Israel? Wow. Nice. Eye for an eye and all for you then, eh?

This is mainly why I included a link to that news article:

"The Israeli army had no immediate comment, but has repeatedly accused Hamas militants of using residential areas for cover. Earlier this week, an Israeli attack outside a U.N. school killed nearly 40 people. Both Israel and Palestinian witnesses said militants carried out an attack from the area moments earlier."

The school was used as a base for militants just before it was hit and there are both Israelis and Palistinians that claim this. Why do you think they are going to use a school as a base to launch attacks from? They are using their own people as human shields against the Israelis and they know it. The fact that the school was hit was probably good for the militants, especially since it was a UN school, because it led to increased protest from the UN and the world media against the Israelis. This is how they work... They store their ammunition in mosques because if a mosque is bombed by Jews, it will anger the whole Islamic world. The US had a similar problem dealing with a mosque in Fallujah, Iraq that was being used by militants.

Israel aren't fighting for their survival, because Palestine aren't a threat to it. And you're making out Israel have just handed Palestine their own state - which isn't including their original boundaries.

I don't really know about the current state of the borders, but I know that a few years back, Israel did offer them 97% of 'Palestine', with the remaining 3% coming from Israeli land and they declined.. Isn't that just being a bit too picky? They were offered 100% at the end of the day but of course, they had the luxury to turn down the offer of peace.

I really don't know enough to talk about this to be honest, but I know that they withdrew from the Gaza Strip just recently and got rid of some of their settlements there. The fact that Gaza and the West Bank fell into Israeli hands is the fault of the Arabs for trying to once again destroy them in the 6 day war, which involved 8 different countries ganging up on the Israelis. The land was the spoils of that war which Israel didn't start. Later on when Egypt and Israel were starting to get on, they even offered to give the Egyptions Gaza back, which was captured from them, but the Egyptians declined... Both bits of land were used as staging points for a war that those Arab countries started and lost.

Jesus, it's fact that Israel have over-stepped their boundaries and then to act surprised that Palestine rise up against them isn't exactly surprising.

That land was taken over and kept by neighbouring Arab countries. It seems like the Israelis are the only reason why they still exist and have a chance of making their own state.

I'm not supporting the rocket fire coming from Palestine, but maybe instead of using Israeli tactics of "Let's destroy all those who oppose us." they should try and resolve why the rocket fire is coming in the first place. There's a difference between defending your country and attacking another.

They withdrew their settlements and forces from Gaza and they are now firing rockets at Israeli civilians on a daily basis. The Israelis need to control their border now in order to stop them from getting rockets from Syria and Iran to use against Israeli civilians.

Slaggis

10-01-2009, 06:37 PM

Can someone explain the basic situation of the Gaza Strip for me? I ask numerous people, and seeing as they all differ in opinion, I have no idea what to believe. What are the facts?

Daft

10-01-2009, 06:40 PM

Anyone who thinks Israeli's response to Hamas is in any way appropriate is an idiot, plain and simple.

The West are trying to promote democracy in the Middle East but they condemn Hamas even though they are democratically elected. Even though Israel has democracy they in no way try and promote it on the Arab side and has actually gone out of its way to undermine it. Israel has had a long history of collaboration with Arab regimes to suppress Palestinian nationalism. When Hamas was democratically elected Israel didn't acknowledge them and branded them as terrorists.

Israel's occupation of the West Bank was about economic and political control and has left the economy completely under developed. Israel don't want to negotiate which isn't surprising considering the becking they get from the international community.

Whatever the numbers, killing civilians is wrong. This rule applies to Israel as much as it does to Hamas, but Israel's entire record is one of unbridled and unremitting brutality towards the inhabitants of Gaza. Israel also maintained the blockade of Gaza after the ceasefire came into force which, in the view of the Hamas leaders, amounted to a violation of the agreement. During the ceasefire, Israel prevented any exports from leaving the strip in clear violation of a 2005 accord, leading to a sharp drop in employment opportunities. Officially, 49.1% of the population is unemployed. At the same time, Israel restricted drastically the number of trucks carrying food, fuel, cooking-gas canisters, spare parts for water and sanitation plants, and medical supplies to Gaza. It is difficult to see how starving and freezing the civilians of Gaza could protect the people on the Israeli side of the border. But even if it did, it would still be immoral, a form of collective punishment that is strictly forbidden by international humanitarian law.

To show just how uneven this 'conflict' is,

In the three years after the withdrawal from Gaza, 11 Israelis were killed by rocket fire. On the other hand, in 2005-7 alone, the IDF killed 1,290 Palestinians in Gaza, including 222 children.

Of course Hamas aren't entirely innocent but Israel is ripping the country to pieces.

Pyxis

10-01-2009, 06:51 PM

The West are trying to promote democracy in the Middle East but they condemn Hamas even though they are democratically elected.

Hamas are a globally recognised terrorist organisation and the attacks can be seen as an act of war anyway.

It wasn't long ago when they were blowing up buses in Tel Aviv packed with Israeli civilians. We know how that feels here in Britain and the Israelis had to experience it all the time thanks to Hamas.

Daft

10-01-2009, 06:59 PM

I never said I approved of Hamas but Israel aren't in anyway different at the moment.

They are a rogue state. They habitually violates international law, possess weapons of mass destruction and practice terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes.

Israel don't want peace, they want to dominate.

Pyxis

10-01-2009, 06:59 PM

List of Hamas attacks on Israel:

"The organization's first mass attack was a car bomb that blew up at a bus stop in Afula in April 1994, murdering 8 and wounding 51. Among the most horrific Hamas attacks were the following:

* 22 people killed and 56 wounded in a suicide bombing attack on the No. 5 bus on
Dizengoff St. in Tel Aviv, Oct. 1994

* 26 killed by suicide bomber on a #18 bus near the Jerusalem Central Bus Station, Feb. 1996

* 16 killed in the Mahane Yehuda open market in Jerusalem in a double suicide attack, July 1997

* 23 dead and 115 wounded when a Hamas suicide bomber blew himself up on a No. 2 bus line coming from the Western Wall in Jerusalem, August 2003

* 45 murdered within the space of five days in March 2002: a suicide Hamas terrorist blew himself up in a Haifa restaurant, killing 15, and another one did the same in the Park Hotel in in Netanya during a Passover Seder, murdering some 30 and wounding 144.

The ten worst Oslo War Hamas attacks, in which a total of 186 were murdered, also included the following:
* June 1, 2001 - Dolphinarium in Tel Aviv, 21 killed - mostly new-immigrant teenagers from the former Soviet Union

* Aug. 9, 2001 - Sbarro's Pizzeria in Jerusalem, 15 killed, including the parents and three children of the Schijveschuurder family

* Dec. 2, 2001 - Haifa bus, 15 killed

* May 7, 2002 - Rishon Letzion hall, 16 killed

* June 18, 2002 - #32 bus from Gilo, Jerusalem, 19 killed

* March 5, 2003 - #37 bus in Haifa, 15 dead

* June 11, 2003 - #14 bus, Jerusalem, 17 murdered"

A full list of attacks since 2000 can be seen on the IMRA website.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/97378

Edit: Oops, sorry. The list was so long that it totally flooded this forum. The rest can be found on the above link.

I never said I approved of Hamas but Israel aren't in anyway different at the moment.

They are a rogue state. They habitually violates international law, possess weapons of mass destruction and practice terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes.

Israel don't want peace, they want to dominate.

Thankfully for Israel, they can dominate their neighbours very well.

Edit: Sorry, I am known to always edit my posts!!

BTW, I used to be 50/50 on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict years ago, but things have changed, like Hamas I suppose (Explosive belts being replaced by rockets, hehe). At the moment, it looks like Israel is doing the right thing, but that's just my opinion. A few years back, I would have said that both sides were as bad as eachother.

Daft

10-01-2009, 07:05 PM

What do you expect when you try and coke a country to death?

That's a real one sided spread of facts there. Thanks, israelnationalnews.com.

They aren't just aiming at schools and transport links because of Hamas, they are doing it to destroy the countries infrastructure.

The fish

10-01-2009, 07:16 PM

Can someone explain the basic situation of the Gaza Strip for me? I ask numerous people, and seeing as they all differ in opinion, I have no idea what to believe. What are the facts?

I was in the middle of typing one up, and my friend's just shown up... If no one does a timeline before I return from the pub, I'll right you one.

Slaggis

10-01-2009, 07:18 PM

I was in the middle of typing one up, and my friend's just shown up... If no one does a timeline before I return from the pub, I'll right you one.

Thanks Fish, I appreciate it.

Daft

10-01-2009, 07:37 PM

The UN have said almost one third of victims killed in Gaza have been children. How anyone can support those actions is beyond me.

Israel has also banned foreign journalists into the country because they want to control the flow of information. This isn't the first time that Israel have used the media to spin things. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/10/gaza-israel-media

Israel has barred foreign journalists from entering Gaza since the start of the war, effectively pulling the blinds over events within the strip. But Palestinian analyst Ghassan Khatib says there is another factor at play in the overall media skew. "Even if the Palestinian side came up with proper messages, Hamas has been successfully labelled by Israel as a terrorist group and is portrayed in the western media in a manner similar to al-Qaida," he says. As a result, western audiences are more prepared to sympathise with Israel – because it fits the "us or them" binary to which post 9/11 ears are attuned.

What reason would they have to restrict and control the spread of information if what they were doing was in any way just?

Pyxis

10-01-2009, 07:51 PM

How was the rally Daft? It sounds as if it got violent.

Protestors clashed with hundreds of riot police in central London as an anti-war demonstration turned violent.

One officer was knocked unconscious and two others received facial injuries as the mood turned sour at what had been a mainly peaceful protest.

A small group of protestors turned on mounted police and riot officers on foot, throwing missiles (was Hamas there?) and smashing windows in Kensington, close to the Israeli Embassy.

A crash barrier set up to help control the crowds was hurled through the large windows of a Starbucks Coffee shop.
Related Links
Gaza: international plan to bring back Fatah
Egypt to helps MEPs gain access to Gaza
Israel rejects UN ceasefire call in Gaza

Police were forced to charge at the group, mainly made up of young men, in an attempt to disperse them.

But sticks, stones and shoes were thrown back before the crowds were brought under control

I wonder what they were planning on doing to the Israeli Embassy?

Daft

10-01-2009, 07:56 PM

The missiles in question were shoes from what I hear. It was a reference to when Bush had that shoe chucked at him. And he dodged with his scary ninja reflexes.

I could only stay until two sadly.

Pyxis

10-01-2009, 07:58 PM

http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/2152/iiipcm7.gif

http://www.sockandawe.com/

Jamba

10-01-2009, 08:18 PM

Fuck you. :indeed:

I think Israel's actions have been justified, but its methods have been too imprecise. Still, there aren't any alternative options that don't result in Hamas continuing to fire/allow the firing of rockets at Israeli civilians.

Absolutely my feelings on the matter.

Also Daft, Hamas started firing those rockets in response to Israel holding Palestinian prisoners. Firing rockets as a response to that isn't diplomatic, it was a terrorist act on civilians also. And lets not forget that rockets were fired from the north recently also, which affected civilians heavily (and I'm willing to bet that these rockets are from the same supply).

If the Palestinians wanted peace then they should have voted in a non-terrorist party. Hamas are also responsible for much of the Palestinian sufferring as they have been using the countries minimal resources to buy weaponry and mistreating the public.

Daft

10-01-2009, 10:51 PM

Two wrongs do not make a right. Palestine and Israel are like David and Goliath, respectively. Palestine has been under massive strain from Israel for decades now; the people elected Hamas in response to Israel. Israel have also violated plenty of agreements; they've restricted exports from leaving the country and into Gaza they have restricted trucks carry basic necessities like food, fuel and other essentials.

When Israel finally did pull out of Gaza 'soldiers continued to control all access to the Gaza Strip by land, sea and air. Gaza was converted overnight into an open-air prison. From this point on, the Israeli air force enjoyed unrestricted freedom to drop bombs, to make sonic booms by flying low and breaking the sound barrier, and to terrorise the hapless inhabitants of this prison.' Does this sound like a country looking for peace?

Israel have the financial and military backing of the US. They have nuclear weapons and the most advance air force in the world, funded primarily by America. With this they have continued to expand past the boundaries initially set for them into Palestine. How else is Palestine to respond? They cannot match Israel in any department. They have very few options and even less supporters.

Israel know that Hamas is hiding among civilians but they still think that collateral damage is acceptable? When the fuck did that become acceptable to everyone?! I've said this before, almost one third, 257 as of two days ago (Lord know how many more have died since.), of those who have been killed have been children. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090108/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_palestinians_young_victims

The Red Cross did not say what happened to the children, but noted that the Israeli army refused rescuers permission to reach the neighborhood for four days.

Sadly Israel's media brain washing seems to have worked on a lot of people because they are not the oppressed, they are the oppressors.

The fish

10-01-2009, 10:58 PM

Thanks Fish, I appreciate it.

No probs!

Ok, here goes:

- The 6-month truce between Israel and Hamas ended on 19th Dec.
- A blockade by the Israelis of Gaza's entry points has lasted since June (shortly after the start of the ceasefire).
- Sporadic, light rocket and mortar fire has been fired into Israel from Gaza during this time.
- Throughout Nov/Dec, the rocket attacks increased. On 26th Dec, Israel allowed 100 trucks into Gaza.
- On 27th Dec, after increased rocket attacks, the Israeli Defence Force (IDF) launched a massive all-out air assault on Gaza, hitting at least 50 targets.
- Early in the morning of 3rd Jan, the built-up Israeli army moves into Gaza, cutting the territory into two.
-On the 6th Jan, two UNRWA schools were hit, killing the most in a single strike by Israel to date.
-As of today, Israeli troops have moved into the outskirts of Gaza city, and the air strikes are continuing. Hamas continues to fire rockets into Israel.

So far, as of 9th Jan, according to the UN, there have been around 800 Palestinian dead and 3,300 wounded. The Israelis, on the other hand, have suffered 13 dead and 119 wounded (including those in combat/friendly fire).

Hope that helps.

I may make this a bit more in depth in time.

Mundi

11-01-2009, 03:01 AM

http://buntnessel.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/slowmogenocidebmp.jpg
A picture says a thousand words, how can they be oppressed if they´ve been taking the land?

MoogleViper

11-01-2009, 11:25 AM

- Early in the morning of 3th Jan, the built-up Israeli army moves into Gaza, cutting the territory into two.

Silly fish. Nice timeline though.

weeyellowbloke

11-01-2009, 12:17 PM

I can't see how anyone can say Israel is right in its actions. Yes Hamas is firing rockets into Israel, but can no-one see the reasons behind such action. If you had another country, which only came into existence 60 years ago, far larger than yourself, blockading resources leaving you in abject poverty and slowly trying to drive off land you had legitimately lived on for centuries; I would think you'd be pretty pissed off as well.

How about Israel actually talks with the Palestinians and co-operates with them as an independant state. It worked with neighbouring Egypt and Jordan, who originally wanted Israel wiped out. But no, they decide to bomb the shit out of a region the size of the Isle of Man killing at least 800 and solving nothing. If anything the action is strengthening Hamas by further radicalising the Gaza population and adding to the idea that they're being persecuted and need to resist.

The fish

11-01-2009, 12:36 PM

Silly fish. Nice timeline though.

I had been drinking, in my defence... :indeed:

Athriller

11-01-2009, 12:40 PM

The whole situation just makes me sick.

Hamas is definitely in the wrong for firing rockets in to Israel, but let it be known it was Israel that broke the cease fire and Hamas were retailiating. Honestly, can we be even be suprised at what Hamas did? When you stop food, aid, and electricity from getting to the Palestinians, bulldoze their homes, take away their land and some of their rights, what do you expect to happen?

I applaud Jon Stewart for having the balls to be one of the few mainstream American figures to speak up. It's depressing how one of America's best comedians is also one of their best politicians.

http://blog.beliefnet.com/progressiverevival/2009/01/jon-stewart-speaks-on-gaza.html

The fish

11-01-2009, 03:51 PM

I just read an interesting article in The Spectator (no, I'm not a Tory...) about the current situation in Gaza. The gist of it is simple - unless Israel destroys Hamas, they'll push/use the Western media to push for a ceasefire, and once one is in place, claim it as a victory. They'll then use this to help recruit a new generation of fighters.

Put simply, Israel needs to remind Hamas that it is, so far, unbeatable. If it gives them anything to claim as a victory, they'll be back to square one.

The whole situation just makes me sick.

Hamas is definitely in the wrong for firing rockets in to Israel, but let it be known it was Israel that broke the cease fire and Hamas were retailiating.

No they didn't - Israel launch an operation in the West Bank (no subject to the ceasefire) in June, to which Hamas responded by breaking the ceasefire. Israel then imposed the blockade. In November, rocket attacks from Hamas increased dramatically, and come late December, they were approaching pre-ceasefire levels. Israel then launched the current campaign.

Also, John Stewart is a legend in his own right.

Athriller

11-01-2009, 04:26 PM

No they didn't - Israel launch an operation in the West Bank (no subject to the ceasefire) in June, to which Hamas responded by breaking the ceasefire. Israel then imposed the blockade. In November, rocket attacks from Hamas increased dramatically, and come late December, they were approaching pre-ceasefire levels. Israel then launched the current campaign.

Israel broke the ceasefire in November the 4th by killing 6 people. The intensified rockets came as a result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1230/1230581467173.html?via=mr

Whilst the rocket attacks from hamas are disgusting and should be stopped, let's put this in perspective.

Since 2001, 15 Israeli civilians have died from rocket attacks. In the past two weeks, 854 Palestinian civilians have died with another 3000 injured (In an area where over 60% of the population are children).

What?

The fish

11-01-2009, 05:09 PM

Israel broke the ceasefire in November the 4th by killing 6 people. The intensified rockets came as a result.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/1230/1230581467173.html?via=mr

Whilst the rocket attacks from hamas are disgusting and should be stopped, let's put this in perspective.

Since 2001, 15 Israeli civilians have died from rocket attacks. In the past two weeks, 854 Palestinian civilians have died with another 3000 injured (In an area where over 60% of the population are children).

What?

Israel drew the first blood, but Hamas had been firing rockets and mortars from June through to November, at increasing rates.

As for proportions, it's a little irrelevant - Israel isn't going to not use it's highly advanced military technology because their opponents lack it. The more fire power you have, the greater that proportion of collateral damage.

A couple of other things - Hamas included deaths of it's own members in the civilian death numbers, and Israel is attacking targets in densely populated urban areas. The Iraqi army did a similar thing with high-value targets during both Gulf Wars in an attempt to prevent the US from hitting them without hitting civilians too.

nightwolf

11-01-2009, 05:26 PM

http://buntnessel.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/slowmogenocidebmp.jpg
A picture says a thousand words.

So it does. Amazing how people have a way with words..eh?

The fish

11-01-2009, 05:48 PM

So it does. Amazing how people have a way with words..eh?

I should point out that most of the shrinking of Palestine is due to conquests by Israel when it's neighbours have attacked it.

That said, Israel should no better than to build on land which is definitely is Palestinian (such as east of Jerusalem).

nightwolf

11-01-2009, 06:23 PM

I should point out that most of the shrinking of Palestine is due to conquests by Israel when it's neighbours have attacked it.

That said, Israel should no better than to build on land which is definitely is Palestinian (such as east of Jerusalem).

Exactly, it's being hypocritical slightly if they are doing what was being done to them. :shakehead

Pyxis

11-01-2009, 06:55 PM

There are no Israeli settlements in Gaza.

Looking at a map, I think they should withdraw their settlements from the West Bank apart from most of the ones along the Israel border, which they should keep and claim as Israeli territory. They'd probably get away with that, but there would be a big backlash from their own people and the settlers that they'd have to forcibly remove.

Israel still need to take out more of Hamas before they withdraw from Gaza, although they know that if they face the Israelis head on, they'll be like goats staring a tiger in the face. Border security in Egypt is definitely going to improve after this campaign ends.

The fish

11-01-2009, 06:59 PM

Border security in Egypt is definitely going to improve after this campaign ends.

I think relations would be improved drastically if Egypt/another reasonably neutral country (France?) where to take over responsibility for that boarder.

Pyxis

11-01-2009, 07:07 PM

I think relations would be improved drastically if Egypt/another reasonably neutral country (France?) where to take over responsibility for that boarder.

Germany is planning to send specialists to Egypt to advise them on how to improve security on their side and the Egyptions did welcome the gesture.

The Egyptions and Israelis do have a good relationship going on and the two countries even taken part in joint military exercises these days, which speaks a lot compared to how they felt about eachother before the 6 days war! Hopefully Egypt can up their game and take more responsibility like you said, they are definitely a good country for Israel to work with.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/4218348/Israel-close-to-destroying-military-wing-of-Hamas.html

A military intelligence summary reported frustration that Hamas fighters had retreated into the centre of the strip's cities to avoid confrontation with Israeli forces. Major General Amos Yadlin, the military intelligence chief, said the group had suffered serious losses in 16 days of hostilities but was not yet ready to agree to a truce.

Israel accused Hamas of using the population of Gaza as human shields in the battle. An Israeli newspaper yesterday reported that Hamas leaders had retreated to a bunker beneath wing 2 of the Shifa hospital. The military also released details of a school building that had been rigged with booby traps.

Oved Yehezkel, the cabinet secretary, said the group was also using diplomatic property to shelter from attack. He said: "The leaders of Hamas and the armed wing are hiding in bunkers, hospitals and foreign missions."

Khaled Meeshal, the exiled Hamas leader, said the group would continue to attack Israel as long as the Strip was under fire. One of more than a dozen rockets fired yesterday hit the home of David Buskila, the mayor of the front line town of Sderot.

The senior Israeli delegate to French and Egyptian-led peace talks in Cairo indicated that a fresh round today could see a breakthrough on the key issue of ensuring Hamas is unable to rearm by smuggling munitions into Gaza.

Amos Gilad said Egypt could be trusted to lead the effort to seal the border, though Israel continued to demand heavy foreign input into border monitoring. Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the German foreign minister, offered to send a specialist border security team to Egypt this week for the talks on stopping rocket smuggling.

Hamas leaders are also due to meet Egyptian officials in Cairo today for parallel truce talks.

Daft

14-02-2009, 03:23 PM

Drug giant GlaxoSmithKline pledges cheap medicine for world's poor (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/13/glaxo-smith-kline-cheap-medicine)

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/2/14/1234617943537/Andrew-Witty-the-GlaxoSmi-001.jpg
(Here's a picture. Might keep you attention for a second longer.)

If property is theft, intellectual property at times seems more like murder. When drug companies scrambled to block poor countries importing cheap copies of Aids drugs, they claimed they were protecting what was lawfully theirs, but the cost was paid in human lives. It is thus heartening that pharma giant GlaxoSmithKline has a new boss who grasps that patents are a social construct that must rest upon an ethical foundation. Andrew Witty tells today's Guardian that he will slash drug prices by 75% or more in the poorest countries, and freely share patented knowledge about diseases such as malaria, which the industry has long neglected because so few victims can afford innovative treatments. Battle hardened charities have questions about the effect on generic drug manufacturers in developing countries. Their main task, however, is to hold Mr Witty to his word, to encourage him to go further - and to call on others to follow his lead. As always in ethical business, there is an element of enlightened self-interest. From Beijing to Brasilia the developing world is growing in power, and it is hard to believe it will continue to acquiesce in unjust western patent arrangements for long. At the same time, the emerging lesson of open source software is that commercial success can sometimes be found within the public domain. By pooling some of GSK's knowledge, Mr Witty readies the company for playing by the new rules when they arrive. And, in the meantime, he might save some lives.

Should GSK be doing more? It's a start.