No HD? Oh well...

[Shaze_Nab]

I'm getting a 360, and I thought I'd take a look at the game reviews. However, I was not impressed by the number of times the reviewers said you would need a HD-TV to see the best of the next-gen. Honestly, if that is true, than Microsoft should be shot, because the true cost of the 360 isn't £280, but £1780. I think with this new era of tv's it is still unfair to back gamers into a courber and force them to buy a new TV, much like charging for online play. Living in the UK, HD-TV has only just hit stores, and is hugely expensive. My money is already limited investing in the 360 and a heap of DS games, I can't afford a new TV.

But I'm being punished! Microsofts choice to include HD, has not given gamers a fair choice, but is telling you to get HD, or get out. This, in my oppinion, is unfair and if a console was truly next gen, it would look next-generation on all tv's, not just the flashy new ones. But I'm still getting a 360 come launch day, but it certianly isn't for the output, it's for the games.

Now, looking at this perhaps Nintendo are right. Yes HD has taken of in the USA and Canada, but that is one combined market. Us Europeans are behing with everything (I'll admit it) and alienating one market is not wise. This is why I think Nintendo were wise to stay away from HDTV... Games should look good all the time, and not supporting HD tells developers to stop focusing on high definition, and just start creating great games for us poorer people, who happen to be in the majority.

Besides I think I'd much rather pay for more games, than a TV. Also how many HD-TV's can you afford? I can't afford one, but if I did have one then other people certianly wouldn't allow me just to play games on the system... A new TV would be used as the main TV, and like it or not, games aren't that main stream yet.

Maybe I'm being petty, maybe not, but I don't want to buy a new TV just yet... Especially when games are the only thing that uses them ATM.

What do you lot think?

[mike-zim]

i agree. HDtv is one gen too soon. it is like the online thing last year. nintendo were right on the money not going online. this time i think nintendo have called it right once again.

[MonkeyPunch]

Why are you complaining?
It's not like Microsoft is forcing you to buy a HD-TV or anything. The 360's graphics will look incredible on a regular TV and they will look even beter on a HD enabled one. You should be glad Microsoft is pushing technology.

Besides HD is the future. You might not be ready to buy a HD-TV now but when, somewhere in the future, you do decide to buy one then at least you'll have a console that supports it.

[system_error]

Why are you complaining?
It's not like Microsoft is forcing you to buy a HD-TV or anything. The 360's graphics will look incredible on a regular TV and they will look even beter on a HD enabled one. You should be glad Microsoft is pushing technology.

Besides HD is the future. You might not be ready to buy a HD-TV now but when, somewhere in the future, you do decide to buy one then at least you'll have a console that supports it.

On a normal TV you only notice that certain games run better than the same ones on the PS2/CUBE/XBOX but that is about it.

If next-gen means only higher resolution I am out because that is just boring - but it is not my choice. Whoever wants to buy a 360 do it - I am sure you will have plenty of fun with it.

[mike-zim]

On a normal TV you only notice that certain games run better than the same ones on the PS2/CUBE/XBOX but that is about it.

If next-gen means only higher resolution I am out because that is just boring - but it is not my choice. Whoever wants to buy a 360 do it - I am sure you will have plenty of fun with it.

agreed. the rev is the system i am most excited about. seeing i cant afford more than 1 that is the only one for me. :yes:

[Shaze_Nab]

Why are you complaining?
It's not like Microsoft is forcing you to buy a HD-TV or anything. The 360's graphics will look incredible on a regular TV and they will look even beter on a HD enabled one. You should be glad Microsoft is pushing technology.

Besides HD is the future. You might not be ready to buy a HD-TV now but when, somewhere in the future, you do decide to buy one then at least you'll have a console that supports it.

I'm sorry but all you have to do is read reviews to see us non-HD owners are not being catered for... I mean look at this from gamespot...

And that's the rub: "...if you have a good HDTV." Playing NBA 2K6 on a standard-definition television results in a game that is difficult to distinguish from the regular Xbox version. You can make out some of the cloth details as players move around, and the replays certainly look better, with player models that are obviously more detailed. But at the default camera angle, player models are noticeably fuzzier and less detailed. Even the court itself doesn't look so great, with ugly jaggies on the painted lines. The point is that you need an HDTV to fully appreciate NBA 2K6 on the Xbox 360, especially because the gameplay mechanics are so similar. Sure, there's the addition of a defensive crouch button (L trigger on defense), and there have been some refinements made to the shot stick and isomotion. However, the game is largely the same. If you're stuck with a standard-definition television, then you might as well pay less and enjoy the game on your Xbox or PlayStation 2 if you own one of those consoles.

[Pestneb]

do you think the xbox really helped online infrastructure accelerate to a point where it is now ready for online gaming this gen?
it helped, but not greatly. infact personally I think it won't be ready for another couple of years even now. its at a stage where mediocre use can be well supported. imo.

I think the PS3 supporting Hi Def will help more.
and the 360 not supporting 1080p when they've pushed HD seems pretty retarded to me. I assume thats a typo on the site I read it on though.
I think the 360 will push developers into the next generation, but its too early, to harsh a push, and I think it will suffer from that.

[MunKy]

By the time I actually get a HDTV (me, not my family), we will be in the generation of Revo clones anyway. I say good move by Ninty, it keeps costs down and doesnt alienate the key demographic.

[RoadKill]

i agree. HDtv is one gen too soon. it is like the online thing last year. nintendo were right on the money not going online. this time i think nintendo have called it right once again.

You are the most naïve person in the world.

Have you even used Xbox live?

[DiemetriX]

Id rather buy this to-way LCD tv (http://www.physorg.com/news5156.html) than a HD tv anytime :)

[DiemetriX]

Xbox live is the best ting to happen to online gaming evver since CS.
And i'w heard that all 360 online games will have matchmaking :D (if you have a gold supcription)

[DCK]

You can get a 66cm 720p LCD TV for €700-800 (~£500) now, and the world cup is coming up, meaning a major price cut for TVs (especially HDs because it'll be broadcasted in HDTV). Even then the Revolution won't be out yet. I think it'll be a shame when you can buy a HDTV for €400 in two years and the Rev won't support it. This the same as N64 with disc media and the Cube with online if you ask me.

[system_error]

I won't buy a HD TV in the next 5 years or to be even more precise until my regular TV breaks down.
I will wait until HD TV is a standard not a gimmick and next-gen consoles support 1080p. The 360 barely can do 720p (PGR3 is supposed to run with 600p) so why should I care about their "HD TV is the future crap"?

I am glad Nintendo does not force developers to use HD - btw. I think the Revolution could do HD graphics because it is just a higher resolution not some godly power or something. And I would also bitch about Nintendo if they would use Nintendo.

[DCK]

When HD does become a success Nintendo could probably make a different video output cable for the Rev that will support HD, so there's not much point in worrying.

[Innovance]

Why do people find it so difficult to understand nintendos position on these things. We would all mostly agree that moeny makes the world go round figurativly speaking. So why dont you see that the overriding factor in all those "mistakes" nintendo made was profit.

Live was successful to a point. but the subscription part held it back, Because that was the only way microsoft could make it work, if Live had been free then you could tell me that nintendo were wrong to not implement online this gen.
What i want to know is why half a gen later nintendo is able to offer a free service. That is the question people should be asking?

The ever popular disc format argument. Cds were the future, nintendo were stubborn / stupid. Nintendo werent stubborn or stupid they just handled it incorrectly at the time or i guess as best as it could be handled. The main profit point here was piracy nintendo saw it coming and side stepped it. It hurt them but at least they were making profit. I didnt even know that videogame piracy was possible till sony launched the playstation. Then every PS1 owner i met had it chipped or those other things that let them play CD-Rs. I dont know how much money sony lost but im telling you it was significant, if it wasnt they wouldnt be as aggressive with the DRM for PSP or PS3.

HD is just another profit issue, if they dont find a way to do it profitably then they wont do it. This is why nintendo make more profit than their competitiors cos they are smarter with their money.

[Nfanboy]

WOW you guys truly nfanboys if you support no HD. . I stop supporting this company after GC. What a bomb that was i was truly a hardcore nintendo fanboys till i saw the light.. the green light.. HD makes everything MUCH better if you havent seen HD then you dont know what your missing. I was almost rethinking going back to nintendo but after this. HELL NO. They are smarter with money and they screw you guys over thats what it is. LOL thats why MS is gona do well even if they lose some profits they benefit the consumer. STOP BEEN FANBOYS for crying outloud and you should be ashamed of nintendo for this.

[White_Wolf]

I'm sorry but all you have to do is read reviews to see us non-HD owners are not being catered for... I mean look at this from gamespot...

And that's the rub: "...if you have a good HDTV." Playing NBA 2K6 on a standard-definition television results in a game that is difficult to distinguish from the regular Xbox version. You can make out some of the cloth details as players move around, and the replays certainly look better, with player models that are obviously more detailed. But at the default camera angle, player models are noticeably fuzzier and less detailed. Even the court itself doesn't look so great, with ugly jaggies on the painted lines. The point is that you need an HDTV to fully appreciate NBA 2K6 on the Xbox 360, especially because the gameplay mechanics are so similar. Sure, there's the addition of a defensive crouch button (L trigger on defense), and there have been some refinements made to the shot stick and isomotion. However, the game is largely the same. If you're stuck with a standard-definition television, then you might as well pay less and enjoy the game on your Xbox or PlayStation 2 if you own one of those consoles.Isn't that bad for the revolution? If a game on a more powerful console looks like current gen without HD how can the rev do any better?

[Raven]

WOW you guys truly nfanboys if you support no HD. . I stop supporting this company after GC. What a bomb that was i was truly a hardcore nintendo fanboys till i saw the light.. the green light.. HD makes everything MUCH better if you havent seen HD then you dont know what your missing. I was almost rethinking going back to nintendo but after this. HELL NO. They are smarter with money and they screw you guys over thats what it is. LOL thats why MS is gona do well even if they lose some profits they benefit the consumer. STOP BEEN FANBOYS for crying outloud and you should be ashamed of nintendo for this.

im a student who lives the stereotyped 2minute noodle for dinner life.
i cant afford an hd tv, plain and simple.

but from this thread i began to wonder if everyone is missing the point here that "gaming is supposed to be fun" or something like that...i am more inclined to replay super mario bros 3 than to play that useless piece of poo known as mario sunshine.

here is a tip for all ye highschool kids.... GRAPHICS ARENT EVERYTHING

Dont get me wrong, im sure that all of the next gen consoles will be a success, im no blind 'nintendo fanboy' who will shoot down anything with a big green glowing X, but the fact that everyone these days seems obsessed about 'how pretty a game looks' is completely juvenile.

oh and Nfanboy. speaking of being ripped off, go an play with your xbox remote which you were forced to buy to use the dvd function... no seriously, do it. That way you will think about what it means for a company to really rip off a consumer who is blinded by a glowing green light before making such a ridiculous post.

ok... i think im finished with my short rant... anyone else?

[Rolf]

Why are you complaining?
It's not like Microsoft is forcing you to buy a HD-TV or anything. The 360's graphics will look incredible on a regular TV and they will look even beter on a HD enabled one.Exactly.

This is like complaining that HL2 looks crappy, because you have a 64 Mb video card.

[masaki86]

Maybe this is why Nintendo said 'you won't be able to tell the diffence between the consoles visuals' because most will have a normal tv for their xbox 360/ps3 and as reviewers are stating, there isn't much difference between last gen and this gen.

Hopefully though, I am wrong, and the 2nd gen games will look awesome once the developers pull their fingers out.

[Shaze_Nab]

The online thing.. I'll admit xbox live was great, but in the end only 10% of xbox owners had it, yet it felt like everyone had it. I mean admit it the xbox was pretty boring without online play. I was ready to sell my console before I had live, but £40 was easier for me to pay than £1000 for a second TV.

@Rolf... The reason we play consoles is so we don't have to bother with updating our system. I mean it's fine and dandy on the PC, but on a console you should be able to get the fullest out of the system.

@Nfanboy, you are joking? I mean I've never really felt ripped of by Nintendo. They price their systems pretty low and having a lack of online play never bothered me. Sony showed if you try a half assed attempt at online, there is no point in bothering. Besides you are talking about Microsoft... A company that was sued by the EU for ripping of European customers over there OS. A company that releases uncomplete versions of windows leaving you open to viruses, trojans and hackers... Yeah good example.

@Raven. I do agree with you. The main point I was trying to make is why in the world would you want a new TV, when you could have 10 great games instead.

[Shyguy]

WOW you guys truly nfanboys if you support no HD. . I stop supporting this company after GC. What a bomb that was i was truly a hardcore nintendo fanboys till i saw the light.. the green light.. HD makes everything MUCH better if you havent seen HD then you dont know what your missing. I was almost rethinking going back to nintendo but after this. HELL NO. They are smarter with money and they screw you guys over thats what it is. LOL thats why MS is gona do well even if they lose some profits they benefit the consumer. STOP BEEN FANBOYS for crying outloud and you should be ashamed of nintendo for this.

and your calling US the fanboys? wake up and smell the Nintendo Coffee :P

oh and btw if 210 for a half assed console and 280 for the "real" experiance isnt a rip off then i dont know what is

[Shyguy]

also my GAME have a playable 360 and the controller is really comfy but they demos avalable wernt what i expected :S my PC pulled off better gfx than the xbox on call of duty 2 and i dont really have a good gfx card and of course being a PC gamer i tried my hardest to spot lag which only occured once :D

overall it looks pretty nice but its not as "big" a jump in gfx as i though it would be

[Pestneb]

people saying games on the 360 will look great on regular tv's as well, the review posted said there wasn't really a noticeable difference.
looking at RE4 I imagine an 800 Mhz GPU would be adequate for next gen (ignoring HDTV). the only way to justify anything significantly faster would be HDTV, and next gen where does it go then? 2160p?
I see nothing with 480i for tv. I can appreciate perhaps having a 40+" screen with 1080p for films, but in a game the graphics don't matter that much. the biggest screen I'll be getting in the foreseeable future would be a 42" screen, and it more than like won't be 720/1080, I've seen SD tv images on HD tv screens, not impressed, not as in there's no improvement, thats a no brainer, but because the image looked worse.
HDTV just isn't standard yet. if I was in America the situation may well be different

[mike-zim]

You are the most naïve person in the world.

Have you even used Xbox live?

x-box live is at its highest at the moment. just as the next jen consoles are coming out. but at its launch can you honestly tell me that it was as popular as it is now? i think not. it was before its time. i am not slating online play. i love it. but i love it now not when the x-box was released.

i havent tried x-box live to anwer your question.

[Jamba]

Hang on a sec... please tell me that we will be covering motive in this rather frantic episode of te HD generation arguement?

Isn't it likely that Sony said somewhere along the lines that they wanted to do HD first? This is likely to do with the fact that if they sell lots of PS3s they will also sell lots of the HD TVs that they make. TVs and DVD players are the fastest shrinking section of Sony's market, so this would explain a lot.

So Microsoft hear what Sony are doing and suddenly they are going to have HD (of sorts) too! Supprise! No, not really. It's just Sony/Microsoft one-up-manship.

[Shaze_Nab]

OK I take vack my arguement about that I suppose... But then again charging £90 for an unfinished version of windows is a bit unfair, compared to adding £10 to an N64 in Germany...

[system_error]

If you render a picture in HD (1024x720) and use 2xAA it fits in the eDRAM buffer of a certain console and if you then output it to a HD TV it looks brilliant. However on a normal TV the same picture is downsampled to 640x480 by the TV or the console - that means the AA is nearly wasted and that makes it look like a current-gen game.

BUT if you only develop for a SDTV (480p or something) you can do 640x480 with 2xAA you save power (which can be used for more polygons, physics, effects, ...) and you get a much better SDTV picture than the "other" console has. Of course HDTV will look sharper but on a SDTV the Revolution is far superior. Even if the Revolution is weaker than the other console their SDTV picture output is better because it was developed for it.
It is all a matter of choice and to be honest if Nintendos promise is true that they want to cut developing costs I am on board - HDTV is out of my range because I rather eat at a restaurant a few weeks than buying a 1500€ HD TV. Oh and before I forget you also need the right HD TV set because some only support 1080 and then the picture has to be blown up.

[mike-zim]

If you render a picture in HD (1024x720) and use 2xAA it fits in the eDRAM buffer of a certain console and if you then output it to a HD TV it looks brilliant. However on a normal TV the same picture is downsampled to 640x480 by the TV or the console - that means the AA is nearly wasted and that makes it look like a current-gen game.

BUT if you only develop for a SDTV (480p or something) you can do 640x480 with 2xAA you save power (which can be used for more polygons, physics, effects, ...) and you get a much better SDTV picture than the "other" console has. Of course HDTV will look sharper but on a SDTV the Revolution is far superior. Even if the Revolution is weaker than the other console their SDTV picture output is better because it was developed for it.
It is all a matter of choice and to be honest if Nintendos promise is true that they want to cut developing costs I am on board - HDTV is out of my range because I rather eat at a restaurant a few weeks than buying a 1500€ HD TV. Oh and before I forget you also need the right HD TV set because some only support 1080 and then the picture has to be blown up.


that is very informative thank you. if it is right then ofcourse nintendo have taken the right path no doubt about it.

[Innovance]

Hang on a sec... please tell me that we will be covering motive in this rather frantic episode of te HD generation arguement?

Isn't it likely that Sony said somewhere along the lines that they wanted to do HD first? This is likely to do with the fact that if they sell lots of PS3s they will also sell lots of the HD TVs that they make. TVs and DVD players are the fastest shrinking section of Sony's market, so this would explain a lot.

So Microsoft hear what Sony are doing and suddenly they are going to have HD (of sorts) too! Supprise! No, not really. It's just Sony/Microsoft one-up-manship.

To expand on your point, Its about more than HDTVs for sony. They more than likely have the next gen format in blu-ray. So they are going to get PAID if blu-ray reaches popularity. On top of that the move to HD gives them the oppertunity to resell all their IP on a new format. You have to remember sony is a content maker as well, Blu-ray gives them another chance to resell their popular films all over again.

Microsofts motives are really unclear to me. If anyone knows why they are pushing HD so hard id like to hear it.

[Rolf]

@Rolf... The reason we play consoles is so we don't have to bother with updating our system. I mean it's fine and dandy on the PC, but on a console you should be able to get the fullest out of the system.
There are a lot of parts that pull together to create a Personal Computer. A console is fairly useless without a TV.

For now, anyway.

While I agree with you, and I too favour consoles because they're ready out of the box, TV's are evolving along with consoles. You don't have to switch to HD this coming generation, but you will eventually. Most of us are here on RE because we're excited about the direction Nintendo is taking gaming - away from standard visual upgrades and focusing on different aspects of the medium.

Both the 360 and PS3, on a standard TV, will still produce games that look better than anything this generation has to offer. HD will be the standard eventually - If you want to experience the full benefit of the coming generations' visuals, upgrade now. If not, wait a while. TV's come part and parcel with consoles - and now they are evolving, gaming's moving with them. Logically.

Sooner or later, HD will get you.

[Innovance]

WOW you guys truly nfanboys if you support no HD. . I stop supporting this company after GC. What a bomb that was i was truly a hardcore nintendo fanboys till i saw the light.. the green light.. HD makes everything MUCH better if you havent seen HD then you dont know what your missing. I was almost rethinking going back to nintendo but after this. HELL NO. They are smarter with money and they screw you guys over thats what it is. LOL thats why MS is gona do well even if they lose some profits they benefit the consumer. STOP BEEN FANBOYS for crying outloud and you should be ashamed of nintendo for this.

Wow. I really dont get how you can call me a fanboy for supporting no HD. Outside of it makes thigns better what other gains are there to HD?? With HD you havent improved the graphics you only improved the resolution and made things clearer. Its a clear visual improvement but comes at a price. ive seen HD as i use a pc and play game on it.

The main negative point that the starter of this thread is addressing, is if you view something at a different resolution than its intended for it looks worse. This means that unless developers put in more work (spend more money) people playing 360 for the most part are going to end up with worse looking games. The real issue with that is the majority of game players still only have SDTVs. Regardless of the uptake rate of HDTVs, MS have for the most part screwed over the SD portion of their userbase.

Now the downside to nintendos decision is that for those who buy HDTVs rev games are likely going to look worse on those too.

I guess nintendo should leave the choice up to developers, BUT the problem with that is that eventually again HD will become standard through peer pressure amongst developers. That is likely to occur at a higher rate than HD uptake again screwing the majority consumer.

So my point is given those and other negatives i support nintendos decision because at this moment in time HD penetration is not high enough to assume that the majority of your userbase will have HDTVs. Implementing HD at this moment in time will also be a waste of money not in terms of hardware but in terms of software development and value for money for the AVERAGE consumer.

That said nintendo could implement HD as there is a far more widespread HD device in peoples homes, PC monitors which they have already confirmed it will connect too, only problem with that is sound. So why dont nintendo do it that way?

BTW i dont necessarily support sony's push for HD, But i understand it and i agree that THEY NEED it. Its not a consumer driven decision for sony, the fact that they are rumoured to lose $100 on every PS3 should tell you that its more than that. They are desperate for HD to take off, and it is not for the benefit of gamers.

Ive presented my arguments, I dont think those are the typical fanboy type arguments you are implying (im not a fanboy by the way, i like games in general, just nintendo makes most of my favourite) now you need to give me a more solid argument as to why nintendo is wrong to not implement HD, and your current argument of 'HD makes things better' is an example of another fanboy type argument

[mike-zim]

@ Innovance. well said i think that conveys exactly what i think on the situation. the only difference is that i am a 100% genuine fanboy. i accept it and am happy.

[Innovance]

Both the 360 and PS3, on a standard TV, will still produce games that look better than anything this generation has to offer. HD will be the standard eventually - If you want to experience the full benefit of the coming generations' visuals, upgrade now. If not, wait a while. TV's come part and parcel with consoles - and now they are evolving, gaming's moving with them. Logically.

I agree, but that is only if the developer takes the time to make the game look good on a SDTV as well as a HDTV. I just hope that, 'you need a HDTV to see the graphical improvement' doesnt become a common statement this gen.

The problem then becomes to make it look good both on HDTV and SDTV is going to cost more money. Judging by NBA2k6 downsampling to SD isnt going to work very well.

Its the same on PCs i was playing need for speed most wanted demo and decided to experiment with the resolution. The lower i went the worse it looked. But it wasnt cos the graphics were getting worse but because i wasnt at the right resolution, and my distance from the monitor remained the same. As i increased the resolution it improved, its easy to think the graphics were getting better but it was only the resolution that was changing.

kinda like adjusting the size of a video in media player. If i put it to full screen and move back it looks better (the further away i go) because the distortion of the increased size is less noticable. But this in my opinion defeats the purpose of increasing the size, cos my motive in increasing the size was to make it easier to see (clearer) at my current distance.

Now that i think about it the reviewers should have tried moving further / closer to the screen. To see how that affected the visual quality (cos the graphics werent changing). Eventually they would prolly have reached a distance where it looked good again, without the need for HDTV. This kinda messes up my previous arguments a lil, but also presents a semi-solution (not a good one mind) for SDTVs HDTVs sampling issues. the problem is its not really obvious (adjusting you distance) unless you think about it nor is it convenient.

Anyway this really puts the focus of the HD issue on developer/consumer/possibly hardware (performance not power) costs for me.

[Pestneb]

you know tbh I thought nintendo were initially going to support upto 720p.
anyway, off that, I think launch titles for the 360 will suck for SD, if enough SD owners purchase 360 then mid terms games may also have a setting to switch down to 480 resolution.
then at the end of the generation it will probably have higher requirements (like GC games that only supported 60Hz in Pal regions)

basically games will get too big near the end of the 360's life to support multiple resolutions, and launch titles will be too rushed to bother with SD support.
of course they may just be too lazy/not see the need to include SD support in mid gen, so we may see a lack of visual quality in all/the majority of 360 games. only time will tell.

[NeoBlizz]

Kameo on a HDTV (SDTV upscaled + HDTV) on same LCDscreen.

http://members.chello.se/wallmark/kside.jpg

HDTV is more clear, but its not a MAJOR diffrence (like everyone have said it should be).

[Kurtle Squad]

WOW you guys truly nfanboys if you support no HD. . I stop supporting this company after GC. What a bomb that was i was truly a hardcore nintendo fanboys till i saw the light.. the green light.. HD makes everything MUCH better if you havent seen HD then you dont know what your missing. I was almost rethinking going back to nintendo but after this. HELL NO. They are smarter with money and they screw you guys over thats what it is. LOL thats why MS is gona do well even if they lose some profits they benefit the consumer. STOP BEEN FANBOYS for crying outloud and you should be ashamed of nintendo for this.

How is not having HD support shameful?!!? HD TV's wont be fully fledged until next gaming generation anyway.

And how is Nintendo ripping people off exactly?!? Over priced memory cards I agree (get a GAME one, they are HUGE and don't wipe themselves like most 3rd party ones), but the rest is GREAT!!!
And graphics aren't everything, so there's no point worrying about HD. Ever heard of Metroid Prime?...That had SO much atmosphere, it didn't need GREAT graphics, though they are really good. The Revo has something called gameplay over the competition also.

[Jwizzman]

do people seriously care for hdtv? there's hardly that many people who own this kind of tv, it's 100% 1 gen too early so I don't care the least bit that Nintendo doesn't support it

[Raven]

@Innovance
One key term which stood out in your post was "Average Consumer". this made me chuckle. not because it was funny, more than likely its because im insane.
the average consumer is the audience that nintendo generally aim for.
this (i could well be wrong on this) is one of the reasons that the revolution was going to be cheaper than the other systems.


Those images are quite interesting. it makes me wonder what kind of definition all of the Xbox360 trailers were being played at. i saw a Kameo trailer, thought it looked nice... but now im really starting to wonder.
perfect dark zero shouldnt be much different... but there were a few games which seemed to have nice 'crisp' graphics.
hmm. maybe trailers in the future should have attached to them "Shown in SDTV" or whatever. because this could be quite misleading!!!!

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

Oh yeah, HD makes games like Counter-Strike and World of Warcraft THAT much better. I dont believe 50% of americans have HD in their homes, maybe not even 25%.

[MikeMania]

prices are going down, but that doesn't change the fact that no one i know is bothering to get one. If you have a perfectly fine trinitron Television set.

There are so many different formats to technology that are revealed almost every year, and quite possibly, HDTV's life span will be short, and probably somthing called ZDFGHTV will replace it in only a few years! Unless HDTV is so significant and more effecient than current generation sets, which i don't think it is, there is no reason for it to be the next standard. (alothugh i have read somewhere the gov wants us to switch to HD by year 2009 or something... i'm not sure)

[Pestneb]

prices are going down, but that doesn't change the fact that no one i know is bothering to get one. If you have a perfectly fine trinitron Television set.

There are so many different formats to technology that are revealed almost every year, and quite possibly, HDTV's life span will be short, and probably somthing called ZDFGHTV will replace it in only a few years! Unless HDTV is so significant and more effecient than current generation sets, which i don't think it is, there is no reason for it to be the next standard. (alothugh i have read somewhere the gov wants us to switch to HD by year 2009 or something... i'm not sure)

The reason HDTV is being pushed is for larger sets. if you have a 14 inch screen at 480i (what our sets are roughly now) thats fine, but if you have a 28 inch screen at the same resolution, each pixel will be twice as big as that on the 14 inch screen.
go upto 56 inch screens, and they are now four times as big.

hence the move to hi definition. its basically for larger sets.
seeing as in the UK 4:3 screens are still around, I think its unlikely we'll have HD anytime soon. its definitely not going to be a large benefit in Europe, apart from the idiots who will see the HD quality shining through their SD sets.

Out of interest, which gen of video game consoles first supported the widescreen standard in most games? was it N64/playstation, or the current generation?

[Charlie]

How long is it until you have to have a HD TV to play 360 games? Many new GC games require a 60hz TV, many people here don't have one of those, let alone a HD TV.

[Innovance]

Kameo on a HDTV (SDTV upscaled + HDTV) on same LCDscreen.

http://members.chello.se/wallmark/kside.jpg

HDTV is more clear, but its not a MAJOR diffrence (like everyone have said it should be).

Thats the point HD isnt a graphical improvement its a resolution improvement. The thing is you need to view the game at the appropriate resolution to see the graphical improvements. The graphical improvements are still present at SD level but they are harder to see due to viewing the game at the incorrect resolution.

Think resizing videos in media players

[DCK]

Saying "I won't get a HDTV" is selfish. So you have a good TV already, or you can't afford one. So that means you shouldn't care about HDTV because YOU won't have it, other people who put their money together for some quality resolutions don't matter. HDTV is becoming more accesible over time and there will be a time, like it or not, that you'll have a HDTV because it's the standard. It could be in ten years, or it could be in two years, but either way, when you get your old dusty Revolution out for a spin, it'll just be a shame to see the archaic 640x480 resolution.

About the graphical improvements - those who haven't seen the difference, stop talking. The difference between 480p and 720p is big. Even in Resident Evil 4 you see raw strips of pixels simply because the resolution is not good enough to match up to its graphical quality, no matter how much full-scene anti aliasing they've done on it. 1280x768 or 1920x1080 does so much better in displaying good graphics.

I have a feeling that Nintendo is missing an opportunity here. I mean, HD is better than no HD right?

[Pit-Jr]

Im all for the system that can wring the most out of my SD TV, which in this case seems to be Nintendo. Maybe later down the road i can afford an HDTV. By waiting a year or two, the price of the 360 and hopefully HDTV will have come down dramatically to the point where i can afford to own both.

Another point, since Nintendo is positioning Rev as a second console, alot of them will wind up attached to a second TV. Sure alot of ppl own HDTV now, but how many families have an HDTV in EVERY room? Im guessing, not many at all.

EDIT- Im also a load-time whore, from what ive gathered, Nintendo will once again have the shortest load times due to its lack of HD support. Not a big deal to some, but huge to me.

[DCK]

Which is the second console? The 360 or the Rev?

The Revolution seems more a family console to me.

[MunKy]

Im also a load-time whore, from what ive gathered, Nintendo will once again have the shortest load times due to its lack of HD support. Not a big deal to some, but huge to me.

Im with you on that, I hate loading times, which is another reason why I dont buy other consoles. I wish there was a disk/cartridge hybrid so there would be no loading times. If I wanna make a cuppa or have a piss I'll pause the game not wait three hours to open a door.

[Pit-Jr]

Which is the second console? The 360 or the Rev?

The Revolution seems more a family console to me.

Nintendo probably doesnt care as long as you buy one. They said they arent trying to control your livingroom

And yeah, cartridges>disks, but thats a whole 'nother debate. A hybrid would be nice. Nothing is more of a killjoy than a 'now loading' bar.

[Kurtle Squad]

How long is it until you have to have a HD TV to play 360 games? Many new GC games require a 60hz TV, many people here don't have one of those, let alone a HD TV.

You don't need a 60Hz TV with a lot of TVs. 60Hz runs fine on my TV and it's primarily 50Hz. It can just handle 60 aswell.
Maybe once I start earning decent money I'll get an HDTV though, depends what else there is to buy!!

[Pestneb]

ok, found this site, seems to be no biased. here is some of what it says about EDTV (480p), which Rev will support:

"EDTV is a major advance

EDTV, or 480p, doesn't sound like much compared to HDTV. But it is in fact a major step forward in picture quality. On a big screen it looks closer in quality to HDTV than it does regular television. "

"So let's forget about HDTV for a moment. The big leap forward that is accessible to everyone right now is EDTV, which is simply progressive scanning. I had friends over recently and I put on the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" DVD, displaying it on a 120" diagonal screen. They were stunned at the picture quality—"I've never seen ANY big screen ever look that good," said one. "So that's HDTV huh?" Nope. That's just regular DVD my friends, played on a progressive scan DVD player."

http://www.projectorcentral.com/video_signals.htm

sounds good to me. it makes sense, and they don't seem to have a hidden agenda. and it seems to match up with what Nintendo were saying...

[Charlie]

You don't need a 60Hz TV with a lot of TVs. 60Hz runs fine on my TV and it's primarily 50Hz. It can just handle 60 aswell.
Maybe once I start earning decent money I'll get an HDTV though, depends what else there is to buy!!

What?

I was saying that you need a 60Hz TV to play some games, like Metroid Prime 2, for example.

[DCK]

All TVs made since the 90s are 60 Hz TVs, so what's your point?

[Innovance]

HD doesnt improve graphics, there is a clear visual improvement but its not to the graphics themselves, and as long as nintendo do 480p they'll be fine. i dont think anymore really needs to be said

[DCK]

HD doesnt improve graphics, there is a clear visual improvement but its not to the graphics themselves, and as long as nintendo do 480p they'll be fine. i dont think anymore really needs to be said
So how is a visual improvement not an improvement of graphics? Of course they will be fine now, but they would be finer with HD.

[Innovance]

So how is a visual improvement not an improvement of graphics? Of course they will be fine now, but they would be finer with HD.

Because the graphics would actually be better at a lower resolution, outputing at a higher resolution takes resources away that could have been used to make the game look better.

Look at it this way when you record a film in HD what do you add to the real world?? Nothing all you've done is increase the resolution, this allows everything that was ALREADY THERE to be seen in greater detail.

I dont know how we got into the thought that HD actually adds to the graphics, when in reality it takes away from them as the higher resolution takes graphical power away from the game.

But there is clearly a graphical improvement right? Of course the x360 is more powerful than current gen consoles so of course there will be an improvement, but its not because of HD.

The final point is there is a clear difference between SD and HD images. Yeh there is a difference but its really not the difference we think it is. The graphics are actually the same on an SDTV but they appear worse because they are being viewed at the incorrect resolution (over the same distance)

All in all HD is uneccessary for this generation and if you read the link about hd that someone posted above you might get a better understanding of the points im trying to make.

Im not saying there is no difference, because there clearly is all im saying is that its not the difference we perceive it to be. Just using your eyes will give you the wrong impression. Its why microsoft and sony are incorrectly telling people that HD improves graphics and they are getting away with it.

[Innovance]

i personally think that hd isnt in it, because what they are trying to do with the graphics is is too expensiove to implement with HD...me and stocka discussed this, take for example those 3d gif images, if you had a 60hz tv, and the game would run at 30fps with the 2 frames jitering back and forth to create the 3d image?

i mean nintendo didnt spend billions on 1 control now did they?

after reading the link above about HD im confident they aren't implementing it because its simply a waste of money this gen, the returns arent worth the investement. I get the feeling that switching to a higher resolution will only be truly worth it when graphics are a lot better than they currently are or will be this gen.

And they are going to support 480p so it shouldnt look that bad on big screen tvs or pc monitors.

Also given the size of the machine id say they invested a lot in making it cheap but efficient given their performance claims

[Innovance]

HD for me = cinema viewing

sorry i didnt quite catch what you meant

[Innovance]

well right now, sony are boasting 2million fps and some over the top HD viewing, what he is describing isnt gaming...its film viewing, the purpose i would buy HDTV for is for films, and not games

Ah true, even then its only really worth it if ya get a bigger sized tv

[DCK]

I have a 70 cm widescreen and I'm really bothered by the raw pixels I see when playing Resident Evil 4 and Metroid Prime 2. I would easily give a way a few million polygons for a higher resolution because I think the current generation has already reached a point on which 480p doesn't do the graphics justice anymore, and it'll only be worse next gen. Of course I won't see it on my TV now, but I think Nintendo can really enrich the game experience for others by adding HD support.

[Cheapshot]

I don't need HD; I have an RGB cable for my 'Cube and the games look beautiful, crisp and clear on my normal telly, HD is simply too expensive and insignificant to garner my interest.

[mike-zim]

(alothugh i have read somewhere the gov wants us to switch to HD by year 2009 or something... i'm not sure)

are you sure? i dont think they want us to swith to High Deffinition Televisions (HDTV) but Intergrated Digital Televisions (IDTV) so they can stop the analog signal and so the whole country will pick up digital instead.

Anyway if these consoles need HDTV to make that much of a graphical improvement then they are not that great anyway. if they used SDTV and it looked that much better than i would say fair enough but for people to say you need an HDTV to notice the difference between current and next gen then they have failed us.

[Kurtle Squad]

What?

I was saying that you need a 60Hz TV to play some games, like Metroid Prime 2, for example.

Yeah, and I was saying my TV aint 60Hz!!! Neither is one of my best mates, but they can handle Metroid or Geist.

[Cube]

Then is probably IS 60Hz...or is it something like 15 years old? Even my 7year-old-cheapy-crappy-portable has 60H

Also, i doubt ill be alowed to play games on the "families" HD projector or brand new (well, it arrived in a few weeks) £2500 HD Plasma TV.

I still think graphics can get much better on SD. It just depends if games are optimised for HD or SD.

[YenRug]

Saying "I won't get a HDTV" is selfish. So you have a good TV already, or you can't afford one. So that means you shouldn't care about HDTV because YOU won't have it, other people who put their money together for some quality resolutions don't matter. HDTV is becoming more accesible over time and there will be a time, like it or not, that you'll have a HDTV because it's the standard. It could be in ten years, or it could be in two years, but either way, when you get your old dusty Revolution out for a spin, it'll just be a shame to see the archaic 640x480 resolution.

About the graphical improvements - those who haven't seen the difference, stop talking. The difference between 480p and 720p is big. Even in Resident Evil 4 you see raw strips of pixels simply because the resolution is not good enough to match up to its graphical quality, no matter how much full-scene anti aliasing they've done on it. 1280x768 or 1920x1080 does so much better in displaying good graphics.

I have a feeling that Nintendo is missing an opportunity here. I mean, HD is better than no HD right?

Aren't you being selfish in demanding that everyone else pays more for their console and games, just so you can play on your HDTV? It's called a choice, Nintendo is offering you one without HDTV support, MS and Sony are offering you one with HDTV support. If HDTV is essential to you, then Nintendo is not your choice, plain and simple.

[DCK]

Aren't you being selfish in demanding that everyone else pays more for their console and games, just so you can play on your HDTV? It's called a choice, Nintendo is offering you one without HDTV support, MS and Sony are offering you one with HDTV support. If HDTV is essential to you, then Nintendo is not your choice, plain and simple.
Just to get things clear, I don't have an HDTV, and I'm not expecting one anytime soon (heck, I'm 16), I just think that HDTV should become the standard because it's amazing.

HD doesn't cost more - it's just another socket more in the back of the console that outputs a higher resolution. In games there's barely an extra cost, it's just a larger videobuffer that is used. Console games ported to PC run in 1280x1024 no problem - games need little modification to run in HD resolutions.

I have a feeling Nintendo is missing a chance here. Right now, there aren't many HDTVs, but the console war doesn't last a week, it lasts more than five years.

[Innovance]

Just to get things clear, I don't have an HDTV, and I'm not expecting one anytime soon (heck, I'm 16), I just think that HDTV should become the standard because it's amazing.

HD doesn't cost more - it's just another socket more in the back of the console that outputs a higher resolution. In games there's barely an extra cost, it's just a larger videobuffer that is used. Console games ported to PC run in 1280x1024 no problem - games need little modification to run in HD resolutions.

I have a feeling Nintendo is missing a chance here. Right now, there aren't many HDTVs, but the console war doesn't last a week, it lasts more than five years.

If this was true, then there would be no debate about HD. There would be no discussion about the cost to consumers or the cost to developers, and nintendo would have just made HD Standard, same as everyone else.

But if it really doesnt cost a developer anything significantly more, what is the need for MS and Sony to force developers to create game in HD as standard??? It would have just been standard anyway.

Where as if it does cost more it would take a (software) gen or 2 to become standard.

[Pestneb]

DCK, sorry, but thats complete rubbish.
take a 600*500 bmp, and compare it to a 1000*700 bmp. the 1000*700 bmp is larger. so thats where you get the buffer increase from. fair enough.
so how does this data reach the buffer? it just magically teleports there does it?
nope. so the rest of the machine has to be built to deal with the additional flow of data.
hence it costs more.

[Innovance]

I have a 70 cm widescreen and I'm really bothered by the raw pixels I see when playing Resident Evil 4 and Metroid Prime 2. I would easily give a way a few million polygons for a higher resolution because I think the current generation has already reached a point on which 480p doesn't do the graphics justice anymore, and it'll only be worse next gen. Of course I won't see it on my TV now, but I think Nintendo can really enrich the game experience for others by adding HD support.

are you sure your tv and the games you were playing were 480p as opposed to 480i ???

i think nintendo will be good enough with 480p from what ive read about HD / ED / SD