Are the Xbox 360 / Playstation 3 holding the industry back?

[jammy2211]

Well, I saw the thread on getting more discussion here, so I've decided to copy and paste one of my pieces of content on the site I work for. Hope we can create some discussion or whatever, it's related to the Wii so don't snud it cause of the topic title :D.

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The topic title may well have just got a few of you guys in a kafuffle, and as such I think I’m going to need to be extra careful when explaining what I mean. I’ve lately been looking at both the Xbox 360 and PS3 lineups and have been left with one question whenever I see a new game; “Where’s the innovation?”. Companies are supposed to have a massive range of new features and power available to them in these behemoth machines, but why does everything feel like I’ve played it 5 years ago. I decided to do some research into why I may feel like this and whether this is a trend that will only be more common in the future.

The PS3 and Xbox 360 are both incredible pieces of technology. I’m sure we’re yet to see anything close to what either machine is capable of and that perhaps one day we’ll be looking back on games like Gears of War and Resistance: Fall of Man and questioning how dated the graphics look. Unfortunately, with this push for HD gaming and photo-realistic graphics, both machines are putting a huge amount of pressure on the finances of any company developing for the machines. Development costs for both consoles have seemingly ‘exploded’ and it’s now common place for companies to be investing $30 million on just one project.
With those sorts of overheads for just one game, is the industry honestly going to be heading in a positive direction? I think this is where my biggest worries lie in what both consoles offer. If a company is investing $25 million + on one game, the simple fact is they must be assured it’s going to sell enough to see profit. I think the best way to explain what I’m saying is in a hypothetical situation. A Big Name developer is starting a new $25 million budget project for the PS3 and Xbox 360, and they have to choose from either of the two game concepts below, which one do you think they’ll choose? :

• A high budget, photo-realistic, first person shooter. It will deviate slightly from the tried and tested formula that saw games like Dead Rising and Resistance: Fall of Man sell over a million copies, and simply guarantees a good profit margin.
• Or, an unproven game trying to create it’s own unique genre, with it’s own unique art style. The game could be the next big thing in gaming, but there is no guarantee it’ll go down well with the gaming world.

There’s no doubt, that from a personal perspective I would love to try and develop the second game listed, but from a business perspective you would simply have to develop the first. This is simply where my worries are, are we ever going to see a company risk trying to develop a completely new and innovative game when development costs are so stupidly high? Or are we simply going to see a high range of Half Life clones, Gran Turismo clones, Grand Theft Auto clones and Oblivion clones?

You may not be worried about what I’m saying, I can certainly enjoy games like GTA and Halo, but at the same time some my most enjoyed games are the ones which tried to create something new, fresh and innovative. If you’re a fan of the Guitar Hero series, you should be worried, if you’re looking forward to Spore, you should be worried, if you’re looking forward to LittleBigPlanet then you should certainly be worried. These are the sort of unique, unproven concepts for games that companies simply won’t be risking huge amounts of money to develop. (LittleBigPlanet is certainly one game I’m really interested by, but is very much an exception to what I am saying because it is a first party title and Sony can afford to risk developing projects like this).

Although on top of this, I have a bigger worry for what these sorts of development costs mean for the industry. This is, the fact that it’s forming an elitism between the big name, high budget developers and small budget, indie developers. Both consoles are creating an environment where if a team of 20 or so people want to start developing a game, it’s simply not possible. There simply isn’t the opportunity for fresh and new independent development teams to start projects on these consoles, because of the price involved in development. Some of the most unique and innovative games of last generation came from these low-key independent development teams. Just look at LittleBigPlanet, the team developing that were only discovered by Sony because they managed to make such a unique and inventive game with Rag Doll Kung Fu.
Are both of these consoles going to create an environment where companies wanting to make such unique games are simply not going to have the opportunity?

Of course both Microsoft and Sony have done something to try and fix this problem. They both created stores which allow users to purchase and download games from what are typically low-key indie developers to their console, for a small price. It is a nice solution but again it worries me, seeing as firstly it gives these games a limited audience (To only those who have connected their consoles online), but also the games will generally be snubbed by most console owners. There is no doubt a limited amount of console owners who actually purchase games off of this store, and when they could be playing these high-budget games available at retail you have to question why they would bother with the download stores.
On top of this all your typical big name companies are given the opportunity to release their old games on the store in new ways, such as adding online play or HD-support. Again, this further makes it more difficult for any small development team to be recognized.

I’m going to quickly address what may be seen as a saving grace to these smaller development teams, and that is the Nintendo Wii. It was heavily criticized for going against the push for HD graphics, and it’s lack-luster hardware, but what you may not know is that the console is a gold mine for anyone looking to develop for it. Games for the Wii on average cost under a fifth of the cost for a multiplatform 360 / PS3 title, and the Hardware Nintendo used is far less complex to develop a game for. We’re already seeing many of the low-key development teams pledge their allegiance with the Wii, and plenty of the newly announced games are without a doubt completely unique and ground-breaking projects I don’t think anyone would have risked developing for a cost of $25 million +. Nintendo have created a platform which allows companies to take risks while experimenting with completely unique hardware (The Wii Remote), whereas both Sony and Microsoft have left developers having to be extra cautious.

I would just like to express that these are my worries, and some of you may be happy with the way both the PS3 and 360 are taking the industry. I thank you for reading and hope that for the discussion preceding this article that we can try to keep things mature. Fan boy flame wars are not welcome and please try to think twice before slating someone else’s opinion or giving us your own.

[Zygo Ape]

Despite the rest of the article which was quite well founded. I think the lack of innovation in the games is a little harsh and a bit rich coming from Wii owners who have got the likes of "Chicken Shoot" and "Brunswick Bowling" to look forward to....

Its the Developers Holding the Progression back, its nothing to do with the Consoles, they merely provide a stage upon which to perform

[Retro_Link]

Its the Developers Holding the Progression back, its nothing to do with the Consoles, they merely provide a stage upon which to performYes and No. Developers can be blamed for cashing in too often and lacking imagination/innovation in their games, but ultimately it's the design of the console that is responsible for progression in the industry; the d-pad, analogue stick, wii-remote/motion sensing etc...

You could argue that the 360/PS3 are pushing the console industry forward in terms of online gaming, but whether that's ultimately the right way to progress (considering PC's are just as good) is another question and one that is being challenged by path the Wii is taking.

[Jordan]

MS have done alot for the industry:
Created THE perfect traditional controller (bar the D Pad) on the 360
Online gaming standard
DLC on consoles

[jammy2211]

MS have done alot for the industry:
Created THE perfect traditional controller (bar the D Pad) on the 360
Online gaming standard
DLC on consoles
The thing is, what exactly out of that has been done before? Online Gaming / DLC was avaliable on the PC over 10 years ago, it's nothing new just they've now put it on a console. They've very much copied the philosophy of a PC and put it in a home entertainment system.

And I still think PlayStation controllers are better, but that's just preference. It's hardly innovation is it?

Despite the rest of the article which was quite well founded. I think the lack of innovation in the games is a little harsh and a bit rich coming from Wii owners who have got the likes of "Chicken Shoot" and "Brunswick Bowling" to look forward to....

Its the Developers Holding the Progression back, its nothing to do with the Consoles, they merely provide a stage upon which to perform

Yeah, the Wii is going to have crap, but that's inevitable.

And can you blame the developers when they're putting $25 million into one project on the X360 / PS3? That's simply too much money to risk on innovation that might not sell. The consoles have created an environment where companies can't risk anything new, as it could result in huge losses.

Except on the Wii, where developement costs are worth the risk, coupled with the Wii's controller, market and emphasis.

[The Bard]

Microsoft have done more for the industry since Nintendo did with the SNES in my opinion. Xbox live is pretty much the perfect online system, 360 has a colossal amount of awesome games.

I'd say that it's the Wii that's holding everything back, because everything except the controller is thoroughly unsatisfactory.

[immy]

I'd say that it's the Wii that's holding everything back, because everything except the controller is thoroughly unsatisfactory.



Pretty much what I think too

[kav82]

Microsoft have done more for the industry since Nintendo did with the SNES in my opinion...

I can't agree with this... Analogue stick... that alone is more than Xbox Live or any other feature Microsoft have brought to the console market!

I don't believe any of the companies are holding the industry back either, look at the industry, it's absolutely booming just now!

[The Bard]

That's not a bad point actually. XBL is still the best thing to happen to games in ages.

[Shino]

I can't agree with this... Analogue stick... that alone is more than Xbox Live or any other feature Microsoft have brought to the console market!

Correct.

I'd say that it's the Wii that's holding everything back

Also correct, not because of its hardware, but because it encourages the kind of games that don't need any effort to develop.

[The Bard]

Also correct, not because of its hardware, but because it encourages the kind of games that don't need any effort to develop.

Yeah, that's basically the other side of this argument.

With 360/ PS3, developing games requires a large amount of expenditure, so developers have to make sure their game is worth playing resulting in long amounts of time being spent to get everything perfect.

With Wii developers either rehash old titles, don't spend time on them or in the rare instance that they try something new, Nintendo dictate that it has to be geared more towards the casual market. Still, I'm confident we'll see some kick ass games soon enough.

[Mikey]

I can't agree with this... Analogue stick... that alone is more than Xbox Live or any other feature Microsoft have brought to the console market!

I don't believe any of the companies are holding the industry back either, look at the industry, it's absolutely booming just now!

Nintendo didn't invent the analog stick.

[AshMat]

The points that Bard, Jordan and Shino (well at least agreed with) all sum it up really.

[Maiky-NiSuTe]

as for technologically no they don't. as for games yes they most defenetly do together with EA that is. they look to mush in one age 12 to 22 and don't think of expanding this like Nintendo does. also they still don't get that you can have a great shooter without blood gore sex and violence. (fur fighters dreamcast)

although sony has done more than Microsoft on this field. (ICO, Buzzer, spyro etc etc) still they never seen the full potential like Nintendo does. and Nintendo doesnt seem to know to find a balance between console power or console playtime. they always go for play time.

[jammy2211]

Yeah, that's basically the other side of this argument.

With 360/ PS3, developing games requires a large amount of expenditure, so developers have to make sure their game is worth playing resulting in long amounts of time being spent to get everything perfect.

With Wii developers either rehash old titles, don't spend time on them or in the rare instance that they try something new, Nintendo dictate that it has to be geared more towards the casual market. Still, I'm confident we'll see some kick ass games soon enough.

Did you actually read what I posted?

These high developement costs mean companies can't dare make a game which hasn't been proven as a good seller. Companies won't risk trying out new genres, using the consoles amazing hardware to design something unique, because they can't afford to take that risk.
On top of this, the only companies who can develope for the consoles are the big ones, any small low-budget teams are simply shunned. That worries me most, as there could be a great team of innovative developers who simply can't make their dream game.

Wii has opened the window for big developers to risk their more creative and unproven projects (a la Zack and Wiki) while giving smaller low key developement teams a chance to release a game to a market where innovation can make a game more attractive then a big budget. I've spoken to alot of these developement teams and they all share the same philosphy and have pledged their 100% dedication to the Wii and DS.

Wii developers will pick up, the first wave of games have been ports and poo because the Wii took everyone by surprise. I know that some of the projects started after the Wii was sold out worldwide for 6 months are far more acceptable, and that Nintendo arn't 'dictating' anything.

[...]

Nintendo didn't invent the analog stick.

Nor did Xbox Live invent online gaming, the comparison is legitimate.

[Mikey]

Nor did Xbox Live invent online gaming, the comparison is legitimate.

No, it isn't. No one is claiming Microsoft invented online gaming, people were just saying that Xbox Live is just a great way for console gamers to play online with each other. People were implying that Nintendo invented the analog stick when they didn't.

[Hero-of-Time]

I dont think that Microsoft and PS3 are holding the industry back at all, they have just took a different route to Nintendo.

Like many have said before I think Microsoft deserves more credit for what they have done for the industry in the short years they have been around. Yes PC games have had online gaming for years but consoles havent and thats where Microsoft have made the biggest impact.

You just have to experience Live with some mates and you realize what a great feature it is. The 360 pad is, as Jordan said, near perfect and the whole Achievement thing in games is a great way to get more out of your games.

The PS3 I wont comment on as I have yet to pick one up but I think they have yet to make an indentity for themselves in this generation as the PS3 is basically a 360 but without the great online features.

Nintendo have done great to come back, they truely have but having owned a Wii since release day I have to say that I do prefer my traditional style of gaming, its just so much more relaxing and the Wii really does lack some "proper" games at the moment. The one thing I give credit to the Wii for is the VC, without this my Wii would have been gathering dust along time ago.

[kav82]

No, it isn't. No one is claiming Microsoft invented online gaming, people were just saying that Xbox Live is just a great way for console gamers to play online with each other. People were implying that Nintendo invented the analog stick when they didn't.

Nobody said Nintendo "invented" the analogue stick! I said they brought it into console gaming... nobody was implying anything of the sort!

[Dilli Gee]

If anything, it's the Wii that's holding the industry back. It's encouraging ports like no tomorrow, with little effort.

[Mikey]

Nobody said Nintendo "invented" the analogue stick! I said they brought it into console gaming... nobody was implying anything of the sort!


lol, man, same thing. They didn't introduce it to console gaming either. Consoles in the 70's had analog sticks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_stick

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

Im sorry but I dont see how the Xbox360 or PS3 is changing anything from how it has always been.

[jammy2211]

Goddddddddd, people don't read my original post and any reply is based on nothing that I mentioned ^_^.

[Zechs Merquise]

No! All three consoles aim to advance the market, just in different directions. The Wii into the mainstream and none gamers, the 360 into the field of online games and hardcore PC like gaming, the PS3 into hi-tech home entertainment.

[...]

lol, man, same thing. They didn't introduce it to console gaming either. Consoles in the 70's had analog sticks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_stick

Ok, but we can all agree that we are all controlling characters in 3D environments via analogue sticks thanks to the N64, not the Saturn, not the PS1, not the Xbox and not the VC 4000 either...

Just to summarize what happened:

1 - Online gaming wasn't invented by Xbox Live and nobody claimed it was; Analogue sticks weren't invented by Nintendo and nobody said they were.

2 - Bard said Microsoft did more to the industry than Nintendo did since the SNES, mainly reffering to Xbox Live.

3 - kav82 replied that the analogue stick was a bigger step towards modern gaming and Bard agreed.

4 - And it's not thanks to the VC 4000 that we control in 3D so precisely today.

Anyway, just to say that I agree with kav82's point, no hassle. :)

[jammy2211]

No! All three consoles aim to advance the market, just in different directions. The Wii into the mainstream and none gamers, the 360 into the field of online games and hardcore PC like gaming, the PS3 into hi-tech home entertainment.

Different direction =/= good directions.

I give up on this anyway, have fun playing your high budget FPS's. I'll be worried for you all, cause games like Guitar Hero won't ever exsist this gen thanks to Sony and Microsoft.

[thirtynine.]

Different direction =/= good directions.

I give up on this anyway, have fun playing your high budget FPS's. I'll be worried for you all, cause games like Guitar Hero won't ever exsist this gen thanks to Sony and Microsoft.
Are you saying sony and M$ are against Games like gitar hero or did i misunderstand you?

[immy]

Different direction =/= good directions.

I give up on this anyway, have fun playing your high budget FPS's. I'll be worried for you all, cause games like Guitar Hero won't ever exsist this gen thanks to Sony and Microsoft.

rock band am cry

[kav82]

lol, man, same thing. They didn't introduce it to console gaming either. Consoles in the 70's had analog sticks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_stick

So I checked out your link and saw that it says about the Interton VC4000 having an analogue stick. However, it also states in the paragraph prior to that, that an analgue stick is sometimes confused with a joystick...

I then go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interton_VC_4000 and see that the pad consists of a 12-key keypad, 2 fire buttons and a joystick


I don't really care if I'm wrong, but you had said that I had said Nintendo invented the analgue stick whereas I was simply referring to them bringing it into console gaming... granted, if they weren't the first to introduce it, they certainly were first to make it mainstream... which is still more than Microsoft have done with Xbox Live (which was the only point I was making)!

...sorry if I sound like I've gone on some mad defensive rant there, I've not meant to, just that you said I was implying something that I totally wasn't!

[jammy2211]

Are you saying sony and M$ are against Games like gitar hero or did i misunderstand you?

I'm saying like games as innovative and unique as Guitar Hero won't happen on them. No one is going to develope a game for $30 million, when somehting like guitar hero could have flopped and not sold.

They would take a risk like that on the Wii developement costs, (or ps2 as it was for GH) but no one will take those sorts of risks, and projects as great a Guiter Hero won't dare be risked for X360 / Ps3.

[thirtynine.]

I'm saying like games as innovative and unique as Guitar Hero won't happen on them. No one is going to develope a game for $30 million, when somehting like guitar hero could have flopped and not sold.

They would take a risk like that on the Wii developement costs, (or ps2 as it was for GH) but no one will take those sorts of risks, and projects as great a Guiter Hero won't dare be risked for X360 / Ps3.
Its no more inivotive than Buzz on the PS2. And yes what about rock band? (I am 100% this game will flop) Granted its borrowing some ideas but its still innovating.

[Calza]

What?

Guitar Hero III and Rock Band are being developed for 360 and PS3. They arn't risky at all compared to stuff like Katamari which is going to be on 360 and not the Wii.

People really need to stop and think around here.

The reason I havn't bought a Wii is because the only game thats out that I want is Zelda and the only games I'm intrested in are the big budget Nintendo games.

Guitar Hero isn't that innovative anyway, it's a rythmn game with a guitar, thats preety much it.

[thirtynine.]

What?

Guitar Hero III and Rock Band are being developed for 360 and PS3. They arn't risky at all compared to stuff like Katamari which is going to be on 360 and not the Wii.

GH = tried and tested formula which they know will work, RB is slightly risky as the price is high and whats stopping you from buying GH2.
Putting Katamari out on the 360 is a risk but it is nessasry we need more games that arent FPS and racing games on the 360.

[Dilli Gee]

Guitar Hero is on the Xbox 360 though...

[thirtynine.]

Guitar Hero is on the Xbox 360 though...
so? 10 charz

[Mundi]

I'm saying like games as innovative and unique as Guitar Hero won't happen on them. No one is going to develope a game for $30 million, when somehting like guitar hero could have flopped and not sold.

They would take a risk like that on the Wii developement costs, (or ps2 as it was for GH) but no one will take those sorts of risks, and projects as great a Guiter Hero won't dare be risked for X360 / Ps3.

Yeah, GH will most likely flop on the Xbox360 and Ps3...... *Looks at GH2 Xbox 360 sales number and gaming score* Oh wait....

[immy]

Yeah, GH will most likely flop on the Xbox360 and Ps3...... *Looks at GH2 Xbox 360 sales number and gaming score* Oh wait....

but xbox is only for teh immature gun games, come to the wii the land of innovation!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Calza]

Please stop about innovation. The DS was innovative but I don't think the Wii is.

I've probably played more Arcade games than actual 360 games and Gears of War is definately not immature.

I hate it how it's like some of you just have sterotypical views of everything bar Nintendo.

[Mundi]

Glory to the innovation!

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h258/Mundilius/Hypnotoad-1p0f.jpg

[Fierce_LiNk]

As Hero-Of-Time said, all three companies tend to be going in different directions. That, in itself, is good for the consumer, more choice, etc.

The worrying thing about Xbox Live, for me anyway, is that Sony are more or less cottoning on to it and are aiming to offer something similar. Not saying they're stealing anything before the Sony d00des jump on me, just saying what I think.

To the question in hand, are the systems holding the industry back: I think both yes and no. (a cop out, I know)

When you think about how much money goes into a game, is it any wonder that smaller studios are going bust? I think that in itself has to change. We need games to come from both big companies and small ones, as variation is the key.

One thing I've noticed is that the Wii is getting quite a lot of third party support, much more so than the Gamecube. Not a week goes by where we don't hear about new games for the future, and now we're getting to the point of third parties offering online play (EA), so Nintendo are definitely improving.

To me, anyway, I think the 360 has hit a bit of a standstill. Xbox Live is great, but when I think to the future, I don't think I can see anything beyond that. Where will they go from there? Couple that with the fact that Sony are trying to offer something similar.

Sometimes, with the 360 and PS3, I don't think we've hit a new generation of systems, but rather an extension of the last one. The Wii has not yet reached its potential, with regards to the controller and other features of the console, but we're starting to see it shine through. New games are getting announced all the time, quirky games, and this is what will guarantee its success.

[Hero-of-Time]

To me, anyway, I think the 360 has hit a bit of a standstill. Xbox Live is great, but when I think to the future, I don't think I can see anything beyond that. Where will they go from there? Couple that with the fact that Sony are trying to offer something similar.


Its interesting that you should say that because Gamecentral ( channel 4 txt ) recently said the same thing in regards to the 360.

They had an article saying how microsoft have really done a great job with the Xbox/360 so far but what is going to happen in the future. They went on to say how the 360 will struggle to get more new gamers as it has kind of got itself into a hardcore rut where only hardcore gamers are buying the machine/games. Basically only those who want to own more than 1 machine.

Its funny thinking about it because Microsoft and Sony were saying how everyone would buy their consoles and then pick up a Wii for their 2nd choice, Nintendo has clearly turned the tables on that theory!

[jammy2211]

Yeah, GH will most likely flop on the Xbox360 and Ps3...... *Looks at GH2 Xbox 360 sales number and gaming score* Oh wait....
You're not even reading what I'm saying. Guitar Hero is an example of a game which came out of nowhere and HArmoxiner took the risk to develope because the costs were so low. It's turned out to be one of the best selling games of the decade and will next be on the 360, PS3, PS2 and Wii.

The point I'm making is, companies won't risk these sorts of projects, these sorts of games that have never been heard of. Guitar Hero 3 can because it's a proven seller now and has a huge fanbase, but would Harmonixer have made Guitar Hero if to make one game it would have cost $30 million? No, not a chance in hell. That's the point I'm making, companies are in a position where they can't afford the risk of making something new or different, or innovative, because the losses ahead of them are so great.

Please don't reply if you didn't read all of my original post, I'm having to cover everythign I explained pretty simply in it. I've not yet seen a post which seems to have nothing to do with my original point, sigh.

Please stop about innovation. The DS was innovative but I don't think the Wii is.

I've probably played more Arcade games than actual 360 games and Gears of War is definately not immature.

I hate it how it's like some of you just have sterotypical views of everything bar Nintendo.

I'm not saying the Wii itself is innovative, I'm saying as a platform is offers companies of all sizes the opportunity to develope innovative and unique games. The combination of extremely low developement costs, a diverse and growing userbase, the motion controls and the very easy hardware to develope for make the Wii a great platform to make innovative games.

A console can only be as innovative as it's software, all I'm saying is the Wii is a console which allows companies to innovate whereas the other 2 don't.

[That Guy]

Different direction =/= good directions.

I give up on this anyway, have fun playing your high budget FPS's. I'll be worried for you all, cause games like Guitar Hero won't ever exsist this gen thanks to Sony and Microsoft.

Well I'd say Viva Pinata, and Little Big Planet shows we will have these games. And stop talking as if Nintendo are the only company doing anything for this industry. They're not.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Well I'd say Viva Pinata, and Little Big Planet shows we will have these games. And stop talking as if Nintendo are the only company doing anything for this industry. They're not.

That's not the point he's trying to make. I actually agree with him. Basically, he's saying that if the risk is too high, 9 times out of 10 the developer won't go for it. Even lesser odds if the developer is lesser known.

[That Guy]

That's not the point he's trying to make. I actually agree with him. Basically, he's saying that if the risk is too high, 9 times out of 10 the developer won't go for it. Even lesser odds if the developer is lesser known.

Ok, but why is he saying the Wii is the only console that allows a developer to innovate? I generally agree with the cost side of things, but that is why I'm totally behind the decision of not making Wii a HD console as the games on it just wouldn't happen. What I disagree with is saying the Wii is the only place to do this.

[Mundi]

You're not even reading what I'm saying. Guitar Hero is an example of a game which came out of nowhere and HArmoxiner took the risk to develope because the costs were so low. It's turned out to be one of the best selling games of the decade and will next be on the 360, PS3, PS2 and Wii.

The point I'm making is, companies won't risk these sorts of projects, these sorts of games that have never been heard of. Guitar Hero 3 can because it's a proven seller now and has a huge fanbase, but would Harmonixer have made Guitar Hero if to make one game it would have cost $30 million? No, not a chance in hell. That's the point I'm making, companies are in a position where they can't afford the risk of making something new or different, or innovative, because the losses ahead of them are so great.


It´s really easy to shout out these statements but you really need more then just speculations to proof your point......
Even though it looks like small developers are going to have a harder time dosen´t mean they are going to stop

[Calza]

Harmonix had been making rythmn games for a while and had achieved a cult status, Harmonix are taking a big risk with Rock Band and it's only on 360 and PS3. They have EA and MTV backing them yet it will be a tough sell.

I hate how people think innovation is when something is completely different and new. Xbox Live is innovative since it allowed you to have a common name across all your games and be able to play with your friends with jumping through a lot of hoops. Compare that to pc gaming at the moment where you have to find the server, talk to your friends via external applications etc.

Something innovative isn't usally something new more a different way of thinking how to make it better.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Ok, but why is he saying the Wii is the only console that allows a developer to innovate? I generally agree with the cost side of things, but that is why I'm totally behind the decision of not making Wii a HD console as the games on it just wouldn't happen. What I disagree with is saying the Wii is the only place to do this.

I think he was implying the general development cost of games, although I haven't read this thread word for word, so I cannot be entirely sure.

[jammy2211]

Ok, but why is he saying the Wii is the only console that allows a developer to innovate? I generally agree with the cost side of things, but that is why I'm totally behind the decision of not making Wii a HD console as the games on it just wouldn't happen. What I disagree with is saying the Wii is the only place to do this.

The Wii is the only console which allows developers to innovate under a budget. End of the day all developers are businesses, and they're primary goal is to make money. No one is going to risk $30 million developement costs to try an unproven game. Sure, companies could innovative on the 360 / ps3, but if anyone ever finds a publisher willing to back that sort of financial venture it'll be a miracle.

It´s really easy to shout out these statements but you really need more then just speculations to proof your point......
Even though it looks like small developers are going to have a harder time dosen´t mean they are going to stop

They're not stopping, they're all moving to the Wii.

And I don't see what is speculation, tons of copanies have spoken out about the high developement costs.

Well I'd say Viva Pinata, and Little Big Planet shows we will have these games. And stop talking as if Nintendo are the only company doing anything for this industry. They're not.

I've already said about LittleBigPlanet in the first post. As I said, please don't respond if you're not even going to bother to read the first post, as it seems most of you have done so.

[The Bard]

Either way, there is a much much larger amount of games coming out on 360 that I'm excited for than I am on Wii.

And guess what the games I'm excited for on Wii are? Mario, Smash Bros and Metroid. All old franchises, 2 of which have been around for, oh, only 20 years.

There's also No More Heroes, although that's the exception rather than the rule.

Developers may be making more Wii games, but all their serious efforts are still geared towards the HD consoles.

[Mundi]

They're not stopping, they're all moving to the Wii.

And I don't see what is speculation, tons of copanies have spoken out about the high developement costs.



And how many of these company´s are designing games that are promised to be
innovative and something that hasn´t been done before?

[hobbzinio]

I stopped taking this thread seriously, the minute I read the thread title.

[Daft]

I stopped taking this thread seriously, the minute I read the thread title.

I concur...

[jammy2211]

Either way, there is a much much larger amount of games coming out on 360 that I'm excited for than I am on Wii.

And guess what the games I'm excited for on Wii are? Mario, Smash Bros and Metroid. All old franchises, 2 of which have been around for, oh, only 20 years.

There's also No More Heroes, although that's the exception rather than the rule.

Developers may be making more Wii games, but all their serious efforts are still geared towards the HD consoles.

Well, you like the 360 games, that's lovely. The Wii has plenty of innovative games lined up. The third parties are VERY geared up to the Wii, just they haven't annocued anything yet for a series of reasons, but many have pledged their support whether they're the big name Capcom's and EA's or the small team low budget indie's.

There are going to be some great games annouced for the Wii, just not yet.

And how many of these company´s are designing games that are promised to be
innovative and something that hasn´t been done before?

I'm pretty sure they all are:

Konami - Dewy's Adventure / Eledees
Capcom - Zack and Wiki
EA - Boogie / MySims
Square Enix - Dragon Quest Swords
Koei - Opoona

That's off the top of my head. These are first wave games and the best of the support isn't annouced. We're all veering away from the point anyway, and any of the points I make people seem keen to just completely go down an irellevent point, sigh.

I stopped taking this thread seriously, the minute I read the thread title.

Thanks for your input, I hope you can carry on making productive and well-educated posts throughout the forums.

[Caris]

If any consoles holding gaming back, it's the Wii imo.

[The Bard]

Zack and Wiki is the only remotely interesting one out of the ones you listed. Opoona, Dragon Quest and Sims look like ass, and Eledees was just not my kinda game. It might have been "innovative" but it was repetitive and got tedious after a while.

And to say "there will be great games announced." Well, no fucking shit, of course there will, but there really haven't been any great 3rd party games out, or announced yet, and thats the worrying thing. Gamecube had plenty of great games by this time in it's lifecycle.

[Hero-of-Time]

If any consoles holding gaming back, it's the Wii imo.

It really does depend on what you want out of gaming though. I have been gaming for 20 years now and I wouldnt have minded at all if they just kept using a normal control pad.

Ive said this many times before but when I come in from work I just want to chill out and play games and it really is hard to do that with the Wii. Even games that dont require much movement like Eledees put a strain on your arm/hand. This reason alone is why my 360/PSP/DS gets a hell of alot more playtime than the Wii.

[Caris]

Yeah, i mean Nintendo fans keep going on about how the wiimote is the revolotion, but there forgetting online play and graphics have a big part as well. and tbh i don't think the controls are perfected enough to master online, i mean say Counter Strike was out for the wii, it would be impossible to master the movemnts and get headshots all the time etc. There just not good enough.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I can't say I've ever felt tired when it comes to playing the Wii, with maybe the exception of Wii Boxing, where I really went for it this one time. (I lost my Pro status and was determined to get it back)

But, when it comes to aiming with a standard controller or wiimote, I think I'll always choose the Wiimote. Its far more accurate to shoot exactly where you want to shoot and you feel more involved. The only thing holding back the Wii from housing a great FPS is turning, nobody quite has that nailed yet.

Nobody's forgetting that graphics and online are a big part at all. All Nintendo believe is that you don't need to go "all Hollywood" with the graphics for the game to be immersive. And, they're gaining more online support as the weeks go by, with Madden and Fifa both supporting online play, so I don't think there's any need to worry.

[Speedfreak]

Zack and Wiki is the only remotely interesting one out of the ones you listed. Opoona, Dragon Quest and Sims look like ass, and Eledees was just not my kinda game. It might have been "innovative" but it was repetitive and got tedious after a while.

And to say "there will be great games announced." Well, no fucking shit, of course there will, but there really haven't been any great 3rd party games out, or announced yet, and thats the worrying thing. Gamecube had plenty of great games by this time in it's lifecycle.

Madden was widely praised as the best Madden ever and the best example of what Wii could do for sports games, SSX got a lot of praise from sites that didn't cry like a little bitch when they didn't master it after 4 seconds. Pretty much everything else has been shovelware from companies that totally underestimated the system, but there are still 3rd party games on the horizon that will use it well. Final Fantasy, No More Heroes, Dragon Quest and FIFA 08 are all going to put the controller to use.

[Hero-of-Time]

Come E3 we will see how well Metroid works with the control scheme.

Its annoying because I really love Nintendo, they are my favourite games company, but in this latest gen im really finding it hard to stick with them. Hopefully E3 will get me back into the fanboy mood.

[Fierce_LiNk]

Come E3 we will see how well Metroid works with the control scheme.

Its annoying because I really love Nintendo, they are my favourite games company, but in this latest gen im really finding it hard to stick with them. Hopefully E3 will get me back into the fanboy mood.

But it's only 6 months or so into a new console's lifetime. Nobody was having a crisis of faith when the 360 went through the same patch! Or the DS.

[Hero-of-Time]

But it's only 6 months or so into a new console's lifetime. Nobody was having a crisis of faith when the 360 went through the same patch! Or the DS.

I was with the DS lol! Thing is though there were still "normal" games to play. The Wii, at the moment, is just mini game collection after mini games collection. Also, the way that we are getting treated in terms of releases is a disgrace.

Nintendo promised that this kind of thing wouldnt happen again yet it seems we have got stiffed when it comes to Super Paper Mario, Eledees, Trauma Centre and now Mario Party. Ok so Nintendo might not be able to do anything in regards to 3rd party titles but with their own they need to get their fingers out.

I really do long for regular game on the Wii as do others hence the outcry of everyone wanting SPM. Im glad R Evil is out this week as it will give me something to play on my Wii.

In terms of graphics I think that the Wii is fine just aslong as developers do their job and push the machine to its limits. I dont really care if its a super Gamecube as the Cubes graphics were fine to me.

[Caris]

But it's only 6 months or so into a new console's lifetime. Nobody was having a crisis of faith when the 360 went through the same patch! Or the DS.

6month into the cube i was having 10x more fun, Pikmin, ExtremeG, Smash Bros, Lugis Mansion.

[Fierce_LiNk]

I was with the DS lol! Thing is though there were still "normal" games to play. The Wii, at the moment, is just mini game collection after mini games collection. Also, the way that we are getting treated in terms of releases is a disgrace.

Nintendo promised that this kind of thing wouldnt happen again yet it seems we have got stiffed when it comes to Super Paper Mario, Eledees, Trauma Centre and now Mario Party. Ok so Nintendo might not be able to do anything in regards to 3rd party titles but with their own they need to get their fingers out.

I really do long for regular game on the Wii as do others hence the outcry of everyone wanting SPM. Im glad R Evil is out this week as it will give me something to play on my Wii.

In terms of graphics I think that the Wii is fine just aslong as developers do their job and push the machine to its limits. I dont really care if its a super Gamecube as the Cubes graphics were fine to me.

There are good titles out there, you just need to look. I still haven't played Madden, but as somebody else rightly said in this thread, that is an example of a game that truely benefits from the controller. There will be many others, as well. Plus, you haven't finished sonic yet, have you?!

6month into the cube i was having 10x more fun, Pikmin, ExtremeG, Smash Bros, Lugis Mansion.

The first 6 months of the Cube were probably the best 6 months of any console, imo.

What did we have? Those you said, plus Wave Race, Burnout, Cel Damage (personal favourite), Pikmin, Rogue Leader.

[JonSt]

I think all the consoles are sort of at a standstill. I'm tempted to get a wii, but I just hate how so many of the games are ps2 ports with dodgy controls tacked on, a problem the PSP has had through out it's life. The Xbox 360 seems to be nothing but FPS and Racing. The PS3 is enduring a bit of a dry spell at the momemt, but im hoping some of the releases coming up will change that.

But it ain't all bad, With more Guitar Hero and the new Rockband on the way.

[Hero-of-Time]

6month into the cube i was having 10x more fun, Pikmin, ExtremeG, Smash Bros, Lugis Mansion.

Very true.

I go through phases with the Wii, somedays I love it but thats when im not lying on my bed chilling out. Others I hate it, that IS when im chilling out lying on my bed. The Cube I loved from the start to the very end, hence my collection of games on it.

There are good titles out there, you just need to look. I still haven't played Madden, but as somebody else rightly said in this thread, that is an example of a game that truely benefits from the controller. There will be many others, as well. Plus, you haven't finished sonic yet, have you?!


I think I have played most of the good games so far though. I have owned/own...

Red Steel
Heatseeker
Eledees
Sonic
Cooking Mama
Zelda
Wii Play
Wii Sports
Wario Ware
Rayman Rabbids
Koropina
ExciteTruck
Mario Strikers
Dragon ball Z
Super Monkey Ball

[gawalls]

dont think they're pushing the industry back, Ms and Sony's PS3 and X360 were very predictable and they released text book next gen machines but Nintendo have given small developers a very real, cheap, advantageous third option where the Wiimote ensures that games can have no limits - only the devs imagination.

With companies like Seeds, Jetblack, the Pollen Sonata game and small pc dev companies releasing old pc games to the Wii already it's looking like a new market of dev companies could flourish this gen with the Wii.

In fact - by the time companies like Konami / Namco wake up and start to realise the Wii is going to be massive this gen and not a fad then it may be too late as these small companies concentrating 100% will be used to devleoping for the Wiimote.

[The Bard]

Madden was widely praised as the best Madden ever and the best example of what Wii could do for sports games, SSX got a lot of praise from sites that didn't cry like a little bitch when they didn't master it after 4 seconds. Pretty much everything else has been shovelware from companies that totally underestimated the system, but there are still 3rd party games on the horizon that will use it well. Final Fantasy, No More Heroes, Dragon Quest and FIFA 08 are all going to put the controller to use.

Madden, or the 10 minutes I played of it was indeed fun, and the Wii controls were what made it awesome, but I don't like sports games, I just don't, I could never get into it.

SSX, which got a rental from me, sucked so unbelievably hard compared to SSX3. DQ looks shit and so does Fifa (as usual) but I'm really very excited for FF and No More Heroes, but the likely hood of them coming before 2008 are remote, which means that Wii's only saving grace this year is going to be Smash Bros, Mario, Metroid and BWii, all Nintendo games. Where's the third party support there?

[gawalls]

Dont think Ms and Sony are holding the industry back - they are predictably releasing new consoles / games as they always have with mor powewrful consoles and better looking, bigger games and 1 year ago that would have been okay for me.

Since getting the Wii - that bores me now and the Wiimote has ruined FPS with the control pad for me, I also predict it will for driving games also once a decent effort comes along. Nintendo has pushed the console and the handheld market and blown it wide open in my opinion and turned it on it's head with state of the art / massive hig budget producted games looking old and tired for me now - it's all about the gameplay and innovation. This is where smaller dev companies where the devs get a lot of freedom of though will flourish, the Wii was aimed with them in mind and Pollen sonata looks to the be the first game that'll demonstrate this.

No More Heroes, Opoona, REUC, Ghost Squad, Red Steel 2 (it'll come - and it'll be fantastic), Tiger Woods 08, Maddens 08, Zak and whatever it's called quest for barbaros treasure, Pollen sonata, Spore, My sims (not my type of games but this'll be huge).

The third party support will be there for the second release of Wii Games and they're getting better every release schedue that passes. (RE4, Harry Potter, Dragon Quest, Dragon Arms, Sims Pets, Trauma Centre on this release schedule )

[jammy2211]

Madden, or the 10 minutes I played of it was indeed fun, and the Wii controls were what made it awesome, but I don't like sports games, I just don't, I could never get into it.

SSX, which got a rental from me, sucked so unbelievably hard compared to SSX3. DQ looks shit and so does Fifa (as usual) but I'm really very excited for FF and No More Heroes, but the likely hood of them coming before 2008 are remote, which means that Wii's only saving grace this year is going to be Smash Bros, Mario, Metroid and BWii, all Nintendo games. Where's the third party support there?

The Third party support can't really be blamed on Nintendo. Every wrote the Wii off, the GameCube was a failure and PS3 was going to dominate everything. Thing is, this hasn't happend, and now that the Wii only proved itself 5 months ago companies have had to start developing the proper games for it around January time earliest.

Games take over a year to develope, so obviously we don't know about the games yet. The games will come, cheap develpoment costs on a console selling so quick is a no-brainer for any businesses. With that support will come the innovative, as well, they go hand in hand.

I'm really amazed by the third party support. When you think how forgotten the GameCube was, we're getting exclusive games from big francshies like NiGHTS, Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, Rygar, Soul Caliber and the Sims, as well as lots of new stuff / other franchises like Zack and wiki, Guitar Hero, No More Heroes and Opoona.

If I had told you of a turn around like that before the Wii launched, you would have laughed very very hard. The progress it's made in terms of the upcoming line up in the 6 months is incredible, just we don't have anything yet, but it's obvious it's coming.

Nintendo were in an impossible situation, no one was going to put any real effort into developing for the Wii except themselves, and they didn't have the money to go paying people. Sure, we're getting a pretty iffy first year but Nintendo are turning it around to make this sort of thing short term and not long term.

[Gizmo]

Since I got my 360 about a month or two ago, my Wii has barely been used. In fact, I haven't bought a new game for it since. The "average" games (by which I mean low key games, not necessarily bad ones), which I would have gotten, like The Godfather, Heatseeker, or Metal Slug Anthology, have been forgotten. This is the first time I've owned two current gen consoles at the same time; instead of getting all the average games from one console, I'm only getting the truly great games on both. Recently the Wii just hasn't had any of these, while I'm struggling to buy and get through the catalog of games I want for the Xbox. Resi Evil will change that, though.

But what I'm trying to get at is that the Wii lacks those killer games right now. But I look to future releases on Wii, and there are more I want for it than the Xbox. Maybe thats because I only joined the 360 wagon recently and don't know about the games, but it's the way it is.

[tapedeck]

I personally love the Wii so much already for its power to bring those who aren't gamers into 'play'. It's like a catch 22 situation though. We want to show off our hobby but we also want it to be exclusively ours. Secretively immersing ourselves in an epic quest or a tight league for hours upon hours. I respect the idea that the Wii has brought consoles into the living room space as an accessible piece of electronics entertainment. And as much as I love this idea I also feel we are currently being shafted when it comes to traditional design. I have NO DOUBT this will be a void argument by next year though. But as a gamer for many years I would like to have seen more traditional games available on the Wii by now. Pro Evo is apparently taxing the developers brain due to the controller. EA are going all out for motion on franchises that already have a proven track record. (Dangerous surely as we all don't want the change.) Yet there are two sides to this. Innovation or stagnation..I'm for both. I just dont want to flail around all of the time.

The need to develop for the Wii should cater to all of the strengths of the console. Not just the controller. I harbour for a more traditional gaming experience. Personalised. And at the moment there haven't been many traditional gaming experiences to be had on the Wii. And I think this is the crux of many a peoples frustrations (as gamers). Sheer expectancy of more traditional games and the lack of these. (Reversing what the cube had at launch.)
Give developers time and I'm sure the Wii will cater for all crowds one day....I just hope the controller isn't the be all and end all. The cube ports and classic controller are there for a reason!

[The Bard]

Gamecube was clearly not a failure, it was my favourite console of last generation.

All, or most of the 3rd party games announced are tedious looking spin offs of existing franchises. I don't like it. I've had a Wii since launch day and the best game on it so far is A Link To The Past.

Ironic, because the name of that game describes the only thing Wii is good for at this moment.

[hobbzinio]

I played SSX Blur once, the day I bought it. I have not played it since. Biggest dissapointment ever, I loved SSX, SSX Trick & SSX 3 too. Its definetly going to be traded in at some point!

[Fierce_LiNk]

Gamecube was clearly not a failure, it was my favourite console of last generation.


The world doesn't revolve around you, Bardy. :heh:

I think they meant sales wise, anyway. It should have done much better than it did, but it was a home to many cracking games.

[The Bard]

Yeah, but failure insinuates that it failed on every level, when it clearly didn't, it had some immense game on it. Wii, is failing so far as I'm concerned, ie, as a core gamer, it's just not appealing to me on any level...

[Fierce_LiNk]

Yeah, but failure insinuates that it failed on every level, when it clearly didn't, it had some immense game on it. Wii, is failing so far as I'm concerned, ie, as a core gamer, it's just not appealing to me on any level...

I guess it depends on what you mean by failure. I think if you could probably say all three systems are failing, in some way or another.

[Gizmo]

I played SSX Blur once, the day I bought it. I have not played it since. Biggest dissapointment ever, I loved SSX, SSX Trick & SSX 3 too. Its definetly going to be traded in at some point!

Play it again. Until you get the controls down.

Honest, it gets fun.

On a side note, why do so many Wii games seem to be like this? Excite Truck, Sonic, SSX, etc.

[hobbzinio]

Honestly mate, I just cannot get to grips with it. I feel like it takes a fuck load of work just to understand the controls and that is not fun.

Any game, that makes me want to throw my cat at a Lorry - isnt good for me. SSX Blur fits under that catergory. I think it is very much a love or hate type of game due to the glitchy control methods. Fair play to EA for trying something different, bits of it worked (snowball throwing etc), just the majority blowed (uber tricks ahem).

[Fierce_LiNk]

Play it again. Until you get the controls down.

Honest, it gets fun.

On a side note, why do so many Wii games seem to be like this? Excite Truck, Sonic, SSX, etc.

ExciteTruck wasn't difficult to get into...not at all. It was more a case of: pick up controller, do!

You have to adjust to the sensitivity, but its a matter of minutes, I think. If that.

[Mayjest]

I'm just gonna ignore everything that's been said above, as it seems to have turned into an 'I'm right because I'm right' argument. That said, I'll offer my two pennys.

Now, the idea of 'holding the industry back' does not imply physically moving backwards, but merely standing still; not moving forward. In short, stagnating. Now, in any industry, stagnation is bad. A company that stagnates and stays the same will be overtaken by a younger, more innovative one. For previous examples, look at SONY completely decimating a stagnating Nintendo and Sega. Or Google overtaking Yahoo!. Failure to innovate will eventually mean that death of the company.

Note that I said the company. The industry will always move forward - there is always new blood willing to take the risk. So no, I do not think that the 360/PS3 is holding the industry back. I do feel, however, that SONY and Microsoft (SONY especialy, they're making a loss in too many departments. They literally only turned a profit this year because of Spiderman 3) had better pull their thumb out soon or they might find themselves having to pull out of the industry in 10 years!