Guns - The Big Debate

[McPhee]

I figured this would be better as a seperate topic, the American University Shooting topic should be kept about that incident

What are peoples thoughts, should they be legal or illegal? Dont just post without thinking it through, there are good reasons for and against.

I'll start off by saying i think they should be Legal, i'll elaborate why further into the topic though because im being lazy :laughing:

[Tellyn]

No, they shouldn't be legalised. The Virginia massacre is a good example of why not, as is just about every other gun crime. Guns are legal in America, and America have the biggest crime rate in the world. Interesting.

If guns are legalised and everyday citizens were allowed to carry one, the amount of shootings will rise, and to be honest everyone will be in danger. I know that the chavvy druggy smoking scum in my school would kill loads of people if they managed to get one. So no.

[Sanchez]

My opinion is this:
Banning guns would not prevent gun crime in a already established gun culture such as america.
I would vote no to legalizing guns here, as they are completely unnecessary and would worsen the chav problem.
However, I think in all cases you should need a license for a gun and larger guns (anything more than a pistol) should be limited the army or need special permission for sporting events.

[harribo]

No, they shouldn't be legalised. The Virginia massacre is a good example of why not, as is just about every other gun crime. Guns are legal in America, and America have the biggest crime rate in the world. Interesting.

If guns are legalised and everyday citizens were allowed to carry one, the amount of shootings will rise, and to be honest everyone will be in danger. I know that the chavvy druggy smoking scum in my school would kill loads of people if they managed to get one. So no.

Pretty much sums up my thoughts exactly.

How long would I actually live if chavs could get guns? My guess is not very long.

[Problematique]

I think the laws here are just about right. Not perfect, but they work pretty well. Of course, Japan is the ultimate anti-gun crime place. How they do it, I don't know.

Here you have to have adequate security for any firearms plus a licence (which includes a lengthy check etc.) And automatic weapons are banned entirely. Good. The whole "defending your property" business seems a bit wrong really. I mean...to be honest I'd much rather shoot someone with a taser than kill them if they're trying to nick my hifi.

Oh:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/nationalnews/11534890/detail.html

That's just wrong.

[Jack]

I was having a debate/argument/pissing contest with someone on another forum about this. He couldn't get his head around the whole "having a gun and shooting someone with it" and "not having a gun and not shooting someone with it" dynamic.

[Rummy]

I don't approve of them being legal in a way that they can be as common amongst society as in america.
Whilst I don't think guns are the cause of the problem, but having them around surely doesn't help things. Not having them around and easily/readily/commonly available reduces the risk.

[MoogleViper]

I don't think guns should be leagl to just anybody. If somebody seruously wanted a gun for a serious reason then they could get a license. If anybody could get one then the scum of the earth would have even more power and our country would be shit. I know there are countries where guns are legal and there aren't many gun related crimes. But not every baby will eat bleach if given the chance. But some will. So let's keep it out of reach of children.

[EchoDesiato]

People in America that don't have guns yet are scared by people who do have them. So what do they do? They get guns themselves for protection, it's a vicious circle.

If guns would be banned alltogether in the US terrible events like what happened in Virginia Tech wouldn't happen. But of course it's easier to blame the video games...

[Rummy]

People in America that don't have guns yet are scared by people who do have them. So what do they do? They get guns themselves for protection, it's a vicious circle.

If guns would be banned alltogether in the US terrible events like what happened in Virginia Tech wouldn't happen. But of course it's easier to blame the video games...

That's actually a very good point, I won't deny that more than once I've considered getting a knife(also because knives can be quite useful, but that was a factor in it). What purpose do guns serve however, which you can't already own a guy for at the moment legally? They aren't entirely illegal over here are they?

[Zechs Merquise]

No, they shouldn't be legalised. The Virginia massacre is a good example of why not, as is just about every other gun crime. Guns are legal in America, and America have the biggest crime rate in the world. Interesting.

If guns are legalised and everyday citizens were allowed to carry one, the amount of shootings will rise, and to be honest everyone will be in danger. I know that the chavvy druggy smoking scum in my school would kill loads of people if they managed to get one. So no.

Very ignorant post. America's crime rate is certainly not the highest in the world. The highest rate of Murder and Rape is in South Africa. It's total chaos there.

[Zell]

I don't think gun crime is really any problem here, however knife crime is. Many people are scared of chavs, because they fear that they have knives on them. A ban on knives would not solve the problem, similarly a ban on guns would not solve the gun problem in the US. As has been said many times, it wasn't the gun that killed those 33 people, it was the person. So the only way to go is really to just to be stricter on who can get their hands on a weapon.

[Mundi]

Taking away the weapon is just one part of solving the problem.
Finding out what makes them want to shoot down other people and making precaution to prevent it is a bigger part of solving this problem.

You can take away the weapon but that won´t take away the motivation to kill

[Kurtle Squad]

Of course, Japan is the ultimate anti-gun crime place. How they do it, I don't know.

Because they're Japanese.

[McPhee]

No, they shouldn't be legalised. The Virginia massacre is a good example of why not, as is just about every other gun crime. Guns are legal in America, and America have the biggest crime rate in the world. Interesting.

If guns would be banned alltogether in the US terrible events like what happened in Virginia Tech wouldn't happen. But of course it's easier to blame the video games...

THis is why i asked people to think.
The Virginia Massacre was planned and therefore would have gone ahed wether or not guns were legal. The guy had a moral compass that allowed him to kill 32 people, do you think a gun ban would really have made him go "oh no! what im doing is wrong!"?
A gun ban would just mean him buying his weapon from the black market, funding more crime in the process.

People in America that don't have guns yet are scared by people who do have them. So what do they do? They get guns themselves for protection, it's a vicious circle.

Ok, break that circle. Person who has gun goes to rob person who doesnt have gun. Person who doesnt have gun catches him. Person who doesnt have gun dies.
The thing about this country is we live in close proximity of each other so we are reasonably safe. In America civilization is a bit more spread out + therefore society cant be depended on to protect its citizens to the same extent. If you live 10 miles from you're neighbor and 50 from the nearest town and someone breaks in what do you do?

[Kurtle Squad]

Very ignorant post. America's crime rate is certainly not the highest in the world. The highest rate of Murder and Rape is in South Africa. It's total chaos there.

Africa doesn't count :heh:

[Monopolyman]

The thing is though, most Americans own guns for hunting, protection and collections, amongst other reasons. Granted, shootings do happen, but the majority shouldn't be punished for the actions of the minority, especially considering guns, or any weapon for that matter, are not the reason why people are violent.

[Sanchez]

THis is why i asked people to think.
The Virginia Massacre was planned and therefore would have gone ahed wether or not guns were legal. The guy had a moral compass that allowed him to kill 32 people, do you think a gun ban would really have made him go "oh no! what im doing is wrong!"?
A gun ban would just mean him buying his weapon from the black market, funding more crime in the process.


Exactly, america is a lost cause. Banning guns would never happen, and if it did the money would simply be going straight to the smugglers instead of the goverment in taxes.

[Flaight]

The Virginia Massacre was planned and therefore would have gone ahed wether or not guns were legal. The guy had a moral compass that allowed him to kill 32 people, do you think a gun ban would really have made him go "oh no! what im doing is wrong!"?
A gun ban would just mean him buying his weapon from the black market, funding more crime in the process.
Guns must have made it easier to kill that many people with relative ease. But, I think you are right, this incident in itself isn't really about gun but about mindset.

In general terms, there are many ways to kill people. But most require something of an effort, which means emotions and mind will play a bigger part, making it considerably harder to actually kill people. On the other hand, guns are comparatively effortless. I think guns is the easiest way to kill people in that sense. Making guns spread in society will statistically become a problem when you consider human nature, which is often temperamental.

I'm against guns being legalized anywhere because of that. The Virginia Massacre reignited the debate about guns in general, but I don't think banning guns would have been the ultimate solution. The ultimate solution is the mind.

[JonSt]

They should be legal, all these people who seem to think these school shootings would be avoided if guns were outlawed. Truth of the matter is, they'd simply find another way to carry out their crimes.

[Rummy]

I don't think gun crime is really any problem here, however knife crime is. Many people are scared of chavs, because they fear that they have knives on them. A ban on knives would not solve the problem, similarly a ban on guns would not solve the gun problem in the US. As has been said many times, it wasn't the gun that killed those 33 people, it was the person. So the only way to go is really to just to be stricter on who can get their hands on a weapon.

It probably wouldn't solve it, but I think I am 90% sure it'd help reduce the problem. Also, I think a ban on guns is much more realistic than a ban on knives, as knives have many more legitimate every day uses. Making guns illegal anyway? That'd be doing the last part of your post.

[Flaight]

They should be legal, all these people who seem to think these school shootings would be avoided if guns were outlawed. Truth of the matter is, they'd simply find another way to carry out their crimes.
But what about if I said I think school shootings would NOT be avoided, BUT guns should still be illegal for other reasons

[Mundi]

They should be legal, all these people who seem to think these school shootings would be avoided if guns were outlawed. Truth of the matter is, they'd simply find another way to carry out their crimes.

It´s true that if guns were illegal he´d probably turn to other weapons but guns make it easier to kill people more effectively and more people overall.
Making guns illegal won´t stop the killings but making guns hard to get will maybe lower it

[Noodleman]

Guns should not be legal without at least some kind of background check and a license for it, and the gun has to be registered at the local police station. And it should be illegal to carry it in public unless your in the police, army etc. And on duty.

[Rummy]

They should be legal, all these people who seem to think these school shootings would be avoided if guns were outlawed. Truth of the matter is, they'd simply find another way to carry out their crimes.

Let's get rid of law and punishment, clearly it isn't working as these people are still commiting their crimes.

[Noodleman]

Something I was going to add to my post: Much like Global warming, whatever your opinions of that surely you can see that having all that Carbon in the atmosphere is not good for us or the planet. So reducing it can only be a good thing, whether it stops the ice caps from melting or not.

Making guns a lot harder to get hold of will surely reduce the amount of violent crimes committed.

[McPhee]

Something I was going to add to my post: Much like Global warming, whatever your opinions of that surely you can see that having all that Carbon in the atmosphere is not good for us or the planet. So reducing it can only be a good thing, whether it stops the ice caps from melting or not.

Making guns a lot harder to get hold of will surely reduce the amount of violent crimes committed.

So stop the gun companies making guns = problem solved?

We all know that, just nobody else is crazy enough to suggest it! :laughing:

[Noodleman]

That isnt what I said at all.

[Haver]

Virginia Tech wasn't about guns or gun legislation or military-grade weapons In the Home or whatever. It was the terrible and unavoidable meeting of a warped, star-crossed, shit-dumb kid and two handguns and a bunch of kids and Professors who in his chickenshit head were Necessary Victims...He would have laid his hands on those weapons regardless, regardless of Virginia state or federal law, otherwise, who knows -- he would have bombed the place. That's what warped, star-crossed, shit-dumb kids do. Would it have been harder with tougher gun-law, Yeah, it would have been harder with tougher gun-law. Would tougher gun-law bring an end to kids shooting up their schools, no, No it Wouldn't.

Let us be clear though, I am one hundred percent against guns On the Street. I can see the fun in gun-sports. My grandfather shot for England, and he was a kind straight-up How'd You Do English gentleman.

[EEVILMURRAY]

I want a gun. So I start ending lives of people who don't deserve the pleasure.

[Zechs Merquise]

I want a gun. So I start ending lives of people who don't deserve the pleasure.

Number 1 post of the year goes to you my friend!

[Pit-Jr]

As an American i understand the right to bear arms and yadda yadda yadda....but i honestly couldnt care less if gun production and sales was limited to military and trained law enforcement. The positive effects of this would far outweigh the negative ones.

So a few hunters wont get to slaughter defenseless wildlife? Boo Hoo

Self defense? Well you better hope your a quicker draw than the person already getting ready to shoot you..

For people that insist that they cant lead a normal, productive life without a firearm, they should by all means join the military. Bush has plenty of targets they can shoot at.

[mp3lord]

As an American i understand the right to bear arms and yadda yadda yadda....but i honestly couldnt care less if gun production and sales was limited to military and trained law enforcement. The positive effects of this would far outweigh the negative ones.

So a few hunters wont get to slaughter defenseless wildlife? Boo Hoo

Self defense? Well you better hope your a quicker draw than the person already getting ready to shoot you..

For people that insist that they cant lead a normal, productive life without a firearm, they should by all means join the military. Bush has plenty of targets they can shoot at.

Police and military don't need to buy their own guns first off.


How quick you are to give away other people's rights. I'm sure there are others that wouldn't care if they gave away yours. I'm not about to tell people they can't defend themselves and their loved ones just because self-defense doesn't work 100 percent of the time.

[Ice9]

I don't think guns should be legal in the UK, but I also don't believe its actually possible to outlaw guns in America becuase they are too widespread. Certainly outlawing them in a place without border controls, i.e. a single state, county or town is the worst idea ever, becuase then people who can legally obtain guns can bring them in to commit crimes without fear of being caught at the border or reprimanded vigilante style.

[The fish]

I think the current gun laws in this country are perfect.
They are totaly illegal, unless you go through the lengthy process to get a license (and 99% of people with a license are farmers who shoot rabbits in their crops).

[Kurtle Squad]

Virginia Tech wasn't about guns or gun legislation or military-grade weapons In the Home or whatever. It was the terrible and unavoidable meeting of a warped, star-crossed, shit-dumb kid and two handguns and a bunch of kids and Professors who in his chickenshit head were Necessary Victims...He would have laid his hands on those weapons regardless, regardless of Virginia state or federal law, otherwise, who knows -- he would have bombed the place. That's what warped, star-crossed, shit-dumb kids do. Would it have been harder with tougher gun-law, Yeah, it would have been harder with tougher gun-law. Would tougher gun-law bring an end to kids shooting up their schools, no, No it Wouldn't.

Yes; it would. Guns being harder to come across would make people less likely to try and get one.
If he hadn't been able to get hold of a gun as easily I reckon it would have been FAR more likely that he would have killed only 2 people that day, probably only one.
Creating a bomb is unlikley for an unorganised warped killer like him, and it would have been easier to get a gun than to build a decent bomb.


Anyway, I don't get why people over here are even worrying about it all when linking it to UK/EU laws. Nothing's gonna happen in America by discussing it.

[Flaight]

I was wondering, since some of you are Americans or have a good understanding of their culture, realistically do you think the National Rifle Association can be defeated politically? My gut feeling is that so long as they are a powerful body, it wouldn't be possible to harden gun laws in the US, but I may be mistaken (?)

In other words, theories aside, I think practically it's not possible to toughen up gun law in the US?

[Dyson]

I'm interested in guns. Does this make me a bad person?

[Zechs Merquise]

I think the gun laws in this country are too tight. I don't think they should be freely available, but blaming all society's ills on weaponry is nonsense. The real issue is dealing with the problems in society, which do not emanate from inanimate objects, but from people.

[Rummy]

I'm interested in guns. Does this make me a bad person?

Are you interested in inflicting serious harm upon a fellow human being?
Another living creature?
Your self?
With a gun?

I list those in what I consider order of seriousness.

[Dyson]

You're right, that was appallingly unclear. If I was to say I wished to own a gun merely to make me feel safe, or to take up a hobby with it, say a shooting range or something, does this make me a bad person as such?

This is purely hypothetical. I don't wish to own a real gun, though I do wish to hear other people's thoughts on it.

(I want to get in to Airsofting, however.)

[Zechs Merquise]

You're right, that was appallingly unclear. If I was to say I wished to own a gun merely to make me feel safe, or to take up a hobby with it, say a shooting range or something, does this make me a bad person as such?

This is purely hypothetical. I don't wish to own a real gun, though I do wish to hear other people's thoughts on it.

(I want to get in to Airsofting, however.)

I've travelled to Prague to go shooting on a range with pistols, it was great fun and there's absolutely nothing wrong with having an interest in guns. I have owned a number of air pistols, I just shoot targets, it's good sport!

[Rummy]

You're right, that was appallingly unclear. If I was to say I wished to own a gun merely to make me feel safe, or to take up a hobby with it, say a shooting range or something, does this make me a bad person as such?

This is purely hypothetical. I don't wish to own a real gun, though I do wish to hear other people's thoughts on it.

(I want to get in to Airsofting, however.)

The point I was making, was no there isn't really anything wrong with it. Owning a gun is not a problem or an issue, a person's intents and attitudes are. I once when I was a wee cub went somewhere and did target shooting with an air rifle, was actually really good fun from what I barely remember(I'd forgotten til now). A gun is simply an inanimate object until someone animates it, how could there be anything wrong with wanting a gun or being interested in them, or even owning one?

[MoogleViper]

Very ignorant post. America's crime rate is certainly not the highest in the world. The highest rate of Murder and Rape is in South Africa. It's total chaos there.

So because it isn't the worst that means it doesn't need solving? That's completely retarded. If you had a problem with your life would it be wrong for you to solve it because there are people with worse problems?

[Zechs Merquise]

So because it isn't the worst that means it doesn't need solving? That's completely retarded. If you had a problem with your life would it be wrong for you to solve it because there are people with worse problems?

That wasn't what I was saying. Also it is very difficult to take America as a whole, as the 52 states are each very different. Some are extremely peaceful and have virtually no crime. Look at ohers and the inner city areas are like warzones.

[rokhed00]

Meh, legal or illegal if someone wants to get a gun they can.
There's shootings near me at least once a week and there are thirteen year old kids with guns walking the streets.

[Librarian]

Here in denmark it's probably not a problem getting a gun if you really want to.. but I can't help thinking that we would see an increase in gun crime if you could just walk into a store and buy a gun.. without a hunting licens or some other permit.. As far as I remember we have only had one school shooting here i DK.. 1994.. the loser shot 2 fellow students and then took his own head of with the shot gun.. have talked to my boss about it.. I want a semi automatic rifle hidden under my desk.. just in case..

[McPhee]

Here in denmark it's probably not a problem getting a gun if you really want to.. but I can't help thinking that we would see an increase in gun crime if you could just walk into a store and buy a gun.. without a hunting licens or some other permit.. As far as I remember we have only had one school shooting here i DK.. 1994.. the loser shot 2 fellow students and then took his own head of with the shot gun.. have talked to my boss about it.. I want a semi automatic rifle hidden under my desk.. just in case..

Wouldnt thatg be pretty useless? If someone pulled a gun on you would you really have enough time to grab the rifle, release the safety and shoot back?