When we are dead.

[THE ganondorflol]

Ever wondered what happens when you die?
Post ideas and customs here.
I believe in Heaven, a paradise in the sky. But that is because I am a christian.

[Kurtle Squad]

You just die.

[THE ganondorflol]

You just die.

Gee, your a happy person. 'We just die'. Now I'm really looking forward to it. Still, you d not know that at all.

[welsh_gamer]

Our spirit moves on to a baby, which is either born or concevied at the time we die, and so, we start a brand new life.

[Cube]

There is nothing.

[The3rdChildren]

We become spirits in the afterlife and if we were remarkable people during life may get to keep our bodies to train and stuff.

[The Bard]

Oma Desala will come and show us the path to ascension :heh:

[BeerMonkey]

Our spirit moves on to a baby, which is either born or concevied at the time we die, and so, we start a brand new life.

thats what i ave thought would happen


dont know bout this whole heaven/hell thing as everyone has broken "thi shall not steal" at some point in there lifes :blank: thus going to hell

and when im dead i want to play games with death like on bill and ted bogus jouney :yay:

[Wesley]

You die.

And then people still alive get upset.

Then they die.

And more people get upset.

Then one of them goes, "Don't be upset. The dead person is in an afterlife."

The more people die.

People still get upset; but don't feel quite as bad because the dead person is in an afterlife.

[Fresh]

who dear, xbox dear, me dear, no dear!

Reading that attually makes me feel ill.

[Stocka]

No-one living knows, and will know. We can only speculate and raise theories, but it's not going to change the truth.

[Caris]

2 Things:

1: if people wonder what happens when you die, think of what you can remeber before you were born, cuase your dead then.

2: I think when you die you start your life again execpt you are another person in it.

[Mr. Bananagrabber]

Ever wondered what happens when you die?
Post ideas and customs here.

Bloody 10 characters.
No.

[Letty]

I dont think anything happens.

You're just sort of gone

[demonmike04]

Meh, im going with the nothingness. Hell cant possibly exist because God always forgives. This makes heaven not so great, but meh, what do I know eh?

[rokhed00]

If you are good you get to watch never ending repeats of Neighbours.
If you are bad you have to watch never ending repeats of Eastenders.

[THE ganondorflol]

Reading that attually makes me feel ill.

I don't know if that is a good thing or a bad thing...

[Ashley]

Gee, your a happy person. 'We just die'. Now I'm really looking forward to it. Still, you d not know that at all.

Surely if you were looking forward to death you'd top yourself? Granted not being scared of death is alright, but looking forward to it?

Anyway. I believe that when we die nothing happens, we just cease to exist. And Flinky eats our brains.

[KKOB]

when i die, i will go to hell. well if god has any taste he'll put me with all the other horny devils :heh:

[Supergrunch]

I don't see why you shouldn't look forward to it- you might think that death is as good as life but different, so you should anticipate.

Alternatively, you could say that heaven is worth looking forward to, but if you commit suicide then you won't go there.

Disclaimer: None of this is my view at all. I'm an agnostic, and I don't see how you could know what it would be like once you die.

[Ashley]

when i die, i will go to hell. well if god has any taste he'll put me with all the other horny devils :heh:

Been watching South Park?

I don't see why you shouldn't look forward to it- you might think that death is as good as life but different, so you should anticipate.

Alternatively, you could say that heaven is worth looking forward to, but if you commit suicide then you won't go there.

I suppose it depends upon your believes. As I said, I believe you just cease to exist, and thats certainly something I'm not looking forward to.

[The fish]

No-one living knows, and will know. We can only speculate and raise theories, but it's not going to change the truth.

I totally agree, but all evidence suggests that when you are dead, once your brain, along with the rest of your body, stops working and you stop thinking, thats it.

And anyway, what's that bad about dying: I was dead for billions of years before I was born, and in that time I suffered not one inconvenience.
I would rather be alive though.

[conzer16]

You just die.

I dont think anything happens.

You're just sort of gone


Anyway. I believe that when we die nothing happens, we just cease to exist.

Do you all honestly believe that? I find it very difficult to comprehend that we just -stop- existing.


all evidence suggests that when you are dead, once your brain, along with the rest of your body, stops working and you stop thinking, thats it.


I am a Catholic, not a devout Catholic but a practising Catholic none-the-less. Obviously I believe in an afterlife, but if I wasn't in any way religious, I would still see myself as having severe difficulties in attempting to comprehend that once we die, we're gone. Over. Nothing.

What is the point in all the strife, all the happiness, all the good and all the pain we all experience if in the end there is nothing.

Isn't life a gigantic waste of time if death has nothing to offer us?



I would rather be alive though.

Why? What's the point?

[KKOB]

Been watching South Park?

nope, why? have i accidentally quoted it?

[Strider]

My brain will not accept that i will just cease to excist when i die.

I believe we go to heaven, we get judged and we either have to come back to earth (Kinda a hell alternative) or if we have learnt enough on earth we move on to a higher place.

I do not believe about all the steal and you go to hell. Times have changed and what may be classed as stealing now like music, music is sound you cant steal sound and i believe this accounts for other things.

[Cube]

Why? What's the point?

There is no point.

[Strider]

There is no point.

You seem very confident about that.

[conzer16]

There is no point.

If that's how you feel, well then i truly pity you.

[Shorty]

Our spirit moves on to a baby, which is either born or concevied at the time we die, and so, we start a brand new life.What's the point? If you don't remember the other life, then you're as good as gone forever. I could tell you that my new born neice is your great, great, great, great grandmother - but if we don't know it and she has no memories, in what way is it still that person?

I don't know what happens after death, I want to believe in some kind of heaven. Ever seen "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams? Now that would be ideal, but I can't deny it's so perfect an idea that it's unrealistic. To me, any afterlife where you can't remember your life or who you are, may as well be the end of your existence, because I believe that we are our memories. Also the heaven in the Lovely Bones would be great. As long as you remember who you are.

What's with the influx of grim threads though? The meaning of life, things we're scared of, life after death - everyone's so down these days.

[Cube]

If that's how you feel, well then i truly pity you.

And I envy you for believing in something else.

[Supergrunch]

I suppose it depends upon your believes. As I said, I believe you just cease to exist, and thats certainly something I'm not looking forward to.
But if you cease to exist, then you shouldn't worry about it either- there won't be a you to worry.

[Raining_again]

I don't think its very fair to judge people on what they believe.

I don't really have a belief as such, try to view life as a bigger picture, and focus less on the negatives. Enjoy it while i can :)

Just don't shove your religion in my face or i get angry. =P

[The fish]

My brain will not accept that i will just cease to excist when i die.


You don't cease to exist, you just stop thinking at all.

[Kurtle Squad]

Gee, your a happy person. 'We just die'. Now I'm really looking forward to it. Still, you d not know that at all.
Well neither do you...baka!!!

Do you all honestly believe that? I find it very difficult to comprehend that we just -stop- existing.

Yes, I do...It's not that hard to understand that once your brain powers down then you can't think anything etc etc etc.

If that's how you feel, well then i truly pity you.
That's because you're a brainwashed Christian

And I envy you for believing in something else.
LOL;):bowdown:

[The fish]

There is no point.

Yes there is. The true purpose of life is simple: to continue the species.

[DCK]

I don't think it's really worth thinking about. If you die, you are not alive anymore, so that means that this physical world is left behind. I'll let myself be surprised I guess.

Anyway, I 'believe' (I hate the religious undertone in that) there is nothing though. There's no reason for us to have a 'spirit' that can pass itself on into heaven/rebirth, so why would we have one? If you're dead, your brain dies, and so does you conscience. The end.

[The fish]

If you're dead, your brain dies, and so does you conscience. End of you.

My point exactly.

[conzer16]

That's because you're a brainwashed Christian



That's a bit harsh. It's my choice to believe in what I want just as it is yours to believe in whatever it is you believe.

Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I am brainwashed.

:nono:

[Stefkov]

Is January the depression month?
I remember being told, whenever someone dies a baby is born. I used to think that the dead person's soul/mind/personality has gone into the baby. However it knows nothing of the other persons life. It just knows it likes carrots etc, is shy etc.
But lives a totally different life.

[The fish]

Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I am brainwashed.

:nono:

It generally means you're a bit close-minded...

[conzer16]

It generally means you're a bit close-minded...


Thats awfully presumptuous of you.

[The fish]

Thats awfully presumptuous of you.

But it's generally true.

[Shorty]

If you're dead, your brain dies, and so does you conscience. The end.
Then why were we here in the first place? Who put us here? Why does the Earth exist, with dirt that feeds plants, plants that make air and grow food we can eat... what's the point in the existence of anything (I'm not going to say "the meaning of life", because that's the other thread, but rather the meaning of everything, dead, alive, stone, flesh, molecules and atoms) if it simply stops existing one day?

Also I feel that the human mind is way too complicated to be entirely scientific. Our conscience can't just be something that's defined by electric patterns, nerves and muscles. If everything were scientific, we wouldn't have evolved to have feelings that are of no benefit to our efficiency or self-preservation - like anger, bitterness, sadness, depression, thoughtfulness. All we'd need is a sexual instinct and big claws to fight off predators. I honestly don't think science can explain the human being, which is a grain of hope I have that our minds won't just abruptly disappear when we die.

[conzer16]

^ What he said.

But it's generally true.

You can't generalize like that.


Oh wait.....

All Muslims are terrorists aren't they?

[Kurtle Squad]

That's a bit harsh. It's my choice to believe in what I want just as it is yours to believe in whatever it is you believe.

Just because I am a Christian doesn't mean I am brainwashed.

:nono:
I'm sure that's what the Nazi's and extremist muslims* think too:indeed:



*and normal ones

[The fish]

Then why were we here in the first place? Who put us here? Why does the Earth exist?

To answer your questions in order, to reproduce and continue the species, why do we have to be put here, and have you ever heard of gravity?

[Kurtle Squad]

Then why were we here in the first place? Who put us here? Why does the Earth exist, with dirt that feeds plants, plants that make air and grow food we can eat... what's the point in the existence of anything (I'm not going to say "the meaning of life", because that's the other thread, but rather the meaning of everything, dead, alive, stone, flesh, molecules and atoms) if it simply stops existing one day?

Also I feel that the human mind is way too complicated to be entirely scientific. Our conscience can't just be something that's defined by electric patterns, nerves and muscles. If everything were scientific, we wouldn't have evolved to have feelings that are of no benefit to our efficiency or self-preservation - like anger, bitterness, sadness, depression, thoughtfulness. All we'd need is a sexual instinct and big claws to fight off predators. I honestly don't think science can explain the human being, which is a grain of hope I have that our minds won't just abruptly disappear when we die.

Actually.....Psychology can 'explain' A LOT of that.

[The fish]

Oh wait.....

All Muslims are terrorists aren't they?

And I said that when?

They are probably all close-minded, but they aren't all terrorists, idiot.

[conzer16]

I'm sure that's what the Nazi's and extremist muslims* think too:indeed:



*and normal ones


Oh! Okay i think I have it now......I think I'm getting the picture here.

Christians are like Nazi's and Muslim extremists.

Religion is bad.

Not believing in anything is right.

When we die...nothing.




What a load of complete bollox.

[Cube]

Yes there is. The true purpose of life is simple: to continue the species.

The existence of said species is pointless. So, whats the point in continuing it?

[Shorty]

To answer your questions in order, to reproduce and continue the species, why do we have to be put here, and have you ever heard of gravity?
You're on a completely different level of "why" here. For starters, continuing the species is a catch 22 response. What's the point in continuing something you haven't given me a reason for existing? And why is continuation important, if there's no sole consciousness behind it who thinks that existence is good - then there's no reason to continue the species.

Of course we don't have to be put here, I've got no argument for that, except that one cannot prove it either way.

And gravity is your explanation for the Earth's existence? Why does gravity exist? Note that whatever you respond to that last one with, I'll say: "and why does that exist?" or "and why did that happen?"

[The fish]

Oh! Okay i think I have it now......I think I'm getting the picture here.

Christians are like Nazi's and Muslim extremists.

Religion is bad.

Not believing in anything is right.

When we die...nothing.




What a load of complete bollox.

Christians are like Nazi's and Muslims in the sense they think they are right.

Religion is an evil trap: once you're in, it's a bitch to get out. You fear that by leaving you may be stuck with eternal damnation.

Not believing in stuff there is no evidence for is perfectly OK.

So what if there is nothing once you are dead? Your not going to miss much. You no longer can think.


And at least atheists can normally spell "bollocks".;)

[Shorty]

Christians are like Nazi's and Muslims in the sense they think they are right.

Religion is an evil trap: once you're in, it's a bitch to get out. You fear that by leaving you may be stuck with eternal damnation.

Not believing in stuff there is no evidence for is perfectly OK.

So what if there is nothing once you are dead? Your not going to miss much. You no longer can think.


And at least atheists can normally spell "bollocks".;)
Oh yeah? Well there's no need to put an apostrophe in "Nazis", so at least us agnostic people know our grammar!

But seriously, I don't know how you people can believe there's nothing and not be scared about it. The idea of not being able to think after you die, you don't know it's happening because you're no longer existing - sure, once it happens there's nothing to worry about. But what about now? Don't you fear the idea that you'll reach the end of your life with regrets? What about the last episode of an amazing show you'll never see, or that you'll never be able to tell a special someone something important. Once it happens, there's nothing you can do about it, choice - what defines humans - is gone forever. The reason to fear it is now, not after the fact.

[conzer16]

Christians are like Nazi's and Muslims in the sense they think they are right.

Religion is an evil trap: once you're in, it's a bitch to get out. You fear that by leaving you may be stuck with eternal damnation.

Not believing in stuff there is no evidence for is perfectly OK.

So what if there is nothing once you are dead? Your not going to miss much. You no longer can think.


And at least atheists can normally spell "bollocks".;)


Well if you think you are right then aren't you just like the Christians / Nazis / Muslims?

As for Religion being an evil trap, well that's your opinion, fair enough.

I'm not arguing that people should believe in something, but that accusing me of being a close-minded brainwashed Christian is petty and childish.

Spelling is for pedants.

[The fish]

And gravity is your explanation for the Earth's existence? Why does gravity exist? Note that whatever you respond to that last one with, I'll say: "and why does that exist?" or "and why did that happen?"

So basically you're a stupid, immature dickhead.

Gravity exists because it's one of the laws of physics. What it is is that any mass has a pull, proportional to it's size, of other objects towards it. The laws of physics are kinda constant, and before you ask there is evidence for it. Sorry, it's not my fault.

[Shorty]

So basically you're a stupid, immature dickhead.

Gravity exists because it's one of the laws of physics. What it is is that any mass has a pull, proportional to it's size, of other objects towards it. The laws of physics are kinda constant, and before you ask there is evidence for it. Sorry, it's not my fault.
Wow, ok that insulting was a bit unecessary :) I wasn't saying I would sit down like a seven year old and say "why?, why?, why?" - but rather you're not really going back far enough. You're not telling me why physics exist in the first place, or why gravity is there. All you're telling me is what gravity is, how the Earth was formed, rather than "why?". It's quite commonly admitted, even by scientists, that science explains the "how" and not the "why", perhaps you need to remind yourself of the meaning of the word "why"?

To try and explain the difference between the scientific "how" and the "why" that I am after: If I say "Why do I have this computer?" the reason is not "it was created in a few factories, out of plastic and metal, the components were formed brought together and flashed with bits of data and connected up and put in a box and then you bought it". The reason is "one day, you decided you wanted a new computer, so you got one."

[The fish]

Well if you think you are right then aren't you just like the Christians / Nazis / Muslims?

As for Religion being an evil trap, well that's your opinion, fair enough.

I'm not arguing that people should believe in something, but that accusing me of being a close-minded brainwashed Christian is petty and childish.

Spelling is for pedants.

No, I don't kill people for because I think I'm right.

You can't deny that in the context I gave that religion is an evil trap.

I never, ever called Christianity petty and childish. I am going to call it irrational, illogical, and evil. And you do get some people who are very childish due to Christianity.

Wow, ok that insulting was a bit unecessary :) I wasn't saying I would sit down like a seven year old and say "why?, why?, why?" - but rather you're not really going back far enough. You're not telling me why physics exist in the first place, or why gravity is there. All you're telling me is what gravity is, how the Earth was formed, rather than "why?". It's quite commonly admitted, even by scientists, that science explains the "how" and not the "why", perhaps you need to remind yourself of the meaning of the word "why"?

*Bangs head on keyboard*

I don't know why. Do you?

And before you answer, saying "Yes, it was because magic invisible man in the sky made it!", will make you sound like an idiot. Think about what you are going to say first.

[conzer16]

No, I don't kill people for because I think I'm right.

You can't deny that in the context I gave that religion is an evil trap.

I never, ever called Christianity petty and childish. I am going to call it irrational, illogical, and evil. And you do get some people who are very childish due to Christianity.

I don't kill people either.... What's your point?

I also never said you called Christianity petty and childish. I said I was arguing because I was called brainwashed and close-minded just because I am a Christian. Al-be-it not by you.

[Kurtle Squad]

"Do you believe in a flying spaggetti monster too?"

[conzer16]

It's amazing how today any type of racism towards Muslims is considered appalling and horrific, but racism towards any other Religion is considered everybody's right.

Open season on Christians eh ;)

[The fish]

"Do you believe in a flying spaggetti monster too?"

If I absolutely had to believe in something, it would be that as it's just so random.

[Rick Dangerous]

I think its ironic that someone called the fish happens to be bashing Christianity

[The fish]

I think its ironic that someone called the fish happens to be bashing Christianity

Yes, because the only fish there is is the Jesus fish.
I don't just bash chrisitanity-I bash religion.

[Shorty]

*Bangs head on keyboard*

I don't know why. Do you?

And before you answer, saying "Yes, it was because magic invisible man in the sky made it!", will make you sound like an idiot. Think about what you are going to say first.

Haha! No man! Of course I don't know why, that's the point I'm getting at.

Science can explain a lot, but not everything. I do not follow a religion, I am completely agnostic. While I want to believe in something after death, I simply can't have blind faith in something like Jesus Christ being the son of God, or reincarnation. The only line between this state and my being a total atheist is the fact that I can't believe everything happened for no reason.

I would ask you to keep your insults, even the ones you only imply, to a minimal. I didn't give you an infraction or anything, but I've been in every right to. Don't get worked up over a discussion, or expect me to roll over and say "hey, you're probably right", that's not how a forum works.

[darksnowman]

But that is because I am a christian.

Born again?

When you die, you get judged. If you fail (and we all should) its burning lake of sulphur time. However, if you've been wise enough to follow a certain Someone who died for you, then alls dandy and you get to walk the streets of gold for eternity. (I hear it'll be better than playing Wii, imagine!) :smile:

[Rick Dangerous]

Just an observation ;)

[Fresh]

I like to belive that that tingly shoot that you sometimes get when your on the toilet having a poo or something lives on and floats around.

[The fish]

Haha! No man! Of course I don't know why, that's the point I'm getting at.

Science can explain a lot, but not everything. I do not follow a religion, I am completely agnostic. While I want to believe in something after death, I simply can't have blind faith in something like Jesus Christ being the son of God, or reincarnation. The only line between this state and my being a total atheist is the fact that I can't believe everything happened for no reason.


Fair enough.
Oh, and sorry for the insults, I get people like this every day at school (even some of the teachers), and it annoys me massively. I apologize.

[Kurtle Squad]

Oh! Okay i think I have it now......I think I'm getting the picture here.

Christians are like Nazi's and Muslim extremists.

Religion is bad.

Not believing in anything is right.

When we die...nothing.


P.S. Please stop avoiding my arguments/points


What a load of complete bollox.
No...I said they think they're right and it's what they 'believe'. But are you saying extreme muslims aren't brainwashed???

You can't not believe in anything; moron.

When we die, it's not nothing. The electricness & chemicals of the brain stop 'working', we then biodegrade and time goes on...

Well I think your God idea is bollocks too.



But seriously, I don't know how you people can believe there's nothing and not be scared about it. The idea of not being able to think after you die, you don't know it's happening because you're no longer existing - sure, once it happens there's nothing to worry about. But what about now? Don't you fear the idea that you'll reach the end of your life with regrets? What about the last episode of an amazing show you'll never see, or that you'll never be able to tell a special someone something important. Once it happens, there's nothing you can do about it, choice - what defines humans - is gone forever. The reason to fear it is now, not after the fact.
No...it wont matter, because you're dead anyway.


You're not telling me why physics exist in the first place, or why gravity is there. All you're telling me is what gravity is, how the Earth was formed, rather than "why?". It's quite commonly admitted, even by scientists, that science explains the "how" and not the "why", perhaps you need to remind yourself of the meaning of the word "why"?
That stuff just exists and you can't explain it, it's just a force...You can't use the argument of "You're not saying why" because: Why did so called God create the Earth then? etc.

[demonmike04]

Why do we exist? God got bored and put us in a game of mass Battle Royale. Originally started with cavemen, the game had a glitch were every one became sex loving hippies and refused to kill.

Meh, no one knows why we exist, but im still going with the majority here. Your brain dies, it means your gone. God didnt put us here, our mothers did.

[The Bard]

It generally means you're a bit close-minded...

Yeah, you're being a bit of a knob here, what with your eletist atheistic stance. In fact, it's you who is being close minded, Conzer is a nice guy, I don't see why you have to label him as the archetypal Christian. In fact, I don't think I actually know any particularly close minded Christians. The fact remains that just because someone is close minded, it doesn't mean that their religion is to blame. In saying this, you're being just as bad as those religious zealots that turn up at your door and don't take no for an answer. Cut it out.

[Ashley]

Do you all honestly believe that? I find it very difficult to comprehend that we just -stop- existing.

I find it difficult to comprehend heaven and hell because lets face it, nobody is good enough to get into heaven (and despite it being accepted repenting sins seems like a cop out to me) and hell is too depressing a thought to acknowledge. If I was to pick any believes it would be the pagen's ones of constant rebirth until you are truely right to be allowed into the Summerlands (been a while since I read the material, so forgive me if thats not quite right)

nope, why? have i accidentally quoted it?

Nope, its just in South Park Satan and Sadamm have a gay love affair.

[KKOB]

Nope, its just in South Park Satan and Sadamm have a gay love affair.

true, but hey, thats where sodomites go WOOP WOOOP!

[Supergrunch]

My brain will not accept that i will just cease to excist when i die.
That is because the human mind cannot comprehend its own non-existence. That isn't to suggest that it will or won't exist we you die.
Then why were we here in the first place? Who put us here? Why does the Earth exist, with dirt that feeds plants, plants that make air and grow food we can eat... what's the point in the existence of anything (I'm not going to say "the meaning of life", because that's the other thread, but rather the meaning of everything, dead, alive, stone, flesh, molecules and atoms) if it simply stops existing one day?

Also I feel that the human mind is way too complicated to be entirely scientific. Our conscience can't just be something that's defined by electric patterns, nerves and muscles. If everything were scientific, we wouldn't have evolved to have feelings that are of no benefit to our efficiency or self-preservation - like anger, bitterness, sadness, depression, thoughtfulness. All we'd need is a sexual instinct and big claws to fight off predators. I honestly don't think science can explain the human being, which is a grain of hope I have that our minds won't just abruptly disappear when we die.

You're on a completely different level of "why" here. For starters, continuing the species is a catch 22 response. What's the point in continuing something you haven't given me a reason for existing? And why is continuation important, if there's no sole consciousness behind it who thinks that existence is good - then there's no reason to continue the species.

Of course we don't have to be put here, I've got no argument for that, except that one cannot prove it either way.

And gravity is your explanation for the Earth's existence? Why does gravity exist? Note that whatever you respond to that last one with, I'll say: "and why does that exist?" or "and why did that happen?"
I feel you underestimate the power of evolution here. Everything that is alive must be able to propagate itself, or there wouldn't be any more of it left. Additonally, the constant process of reproduction makes adaptation possible. Also, we need a great deal more than a sexual instinct and big claws to fight off predators. If we didn't experience the emotions you mentionned, would we have climbed to the top of the food chain and become the most dominant species? I think not.

Nevertheless, when it comes to questions such as "why does the universe exist?", you have a point. There's no clear way to answer that sort of question, and it's one of the things that makes me an agnostic.

[Shorty]

Also, we need a great deal more than a sexual instinct and big claws to fight off predators. If we didn't experience the emotions you mentionned, would we have climbed to the top of the food chain and become the most dominant species? I think not.So you're saying that the following emotions helped us up the food chain: anxiety, surprise, guilt, fear, sadness. In what way?

Edit: also, I have a question about evolution - since you obviously know a lot about it (I don't). A lot of people talk about the "modern man" debate and the great leap we have made, and this is constantly improving - why is it that we took tens of thousands of years to get from the first tools to Shakespeare, but we went from having no electricity to talking around the world with handheld plastic phones smaller than our hands in 200 years? This probably seems way off the topic of death now, but in a way - its still the same thing for me. Because my only relief from the certainty of non-existence is that to me, some things really don't add up.

[Rummy]

Gee, your a happy person. 'We just die'. Now I'm really looking forward to it. Still, you d not know that at all.

Of course he doesn't, but you don't know he's wrong either, you don't know that you're right either.
I'm kind of with Kurt here though(as I've stated in the rather similar meaning of life thread) that when you die you just die, that's it, there is nothing after, just like there was nothing before(before you were born).
Someone argued that I don't know there wasnt anything before I was born, which is true, but I don't think you'll know of anything when you die either. Even if there was something of my existence before I was born, if I have no recollection or memory of it, who's to say it counts?

Meh, im going with the nothingness. Hell cant possibly exist because God always forgives. This makes heaven not so great, but meh, what do I know eh?

Doesn't every religion say that other religions are wrong though and any followers of those shall burn in hell etc etc??

[4q2]

When you die there is not even nothing.
No blackness......nothing.

Just a corpse waiting to rot, a liitle heat created by the rotting process and a lot of happy hungry worms.:yay:

[triforce_keeper]

Well. After BILLIONS and BILLIONS times BILLIONS of years finally living things on planet Earth have become intelligent enough to wonder what is the point in their existence. What happens after death.

Well I think we should be given an answer, but what if this is the after-life. What if this is hell. What if this is all an illusion?

Bit far fetched but just giving some ideas. Oh and I'm not a strong believer in religion but It doesn't mean I go around bashing it. There was no need The_fish.

[Shorty]

After I die, you'll all stop existing because you're figments of my imagination :o

[Gaijin von Snikbah]

I think we move on to level 1-2.

[Kurtle Squad]

So you're saying that the following emotions helped us up the food chain: anxiety, surprise, guilt, fear, sadness. In what way?

Edit: also, I have a question about evolution - since you obviously know a lot about it (I don't). A lot of people talk about the "modern man" debate and the great leap we have made, and this is constantly improving - why is it that we took tens of thousands of years to get from the first tools to Shakespeare, but we went from having no electricity to talking around the world with handheld plastic phones smaller than our hands in 200 years? This probably seems way off the topic of death now, but in a way - its still the same thing for me. Because my only relief from the certainty of non-existence is that to me, some things really don't add up.

Actually.....Psychology can 'explain' A LOT of that.
Anxiety & Fear: To stay away from danger & survive
Sadness: To do with trying to prevent what's making you sad that from happening again etc.
The others are a lil more complicated and I don't know the answer and can't be bothered to look it up.

Have you not realised animals have emotions too???
It amazed me how the news ?last year? did something on dogs having emotions or something:wtf:....You're like VERY late with that 'news' retards.


And to your question:
Because we weren't as 'smart' then so weren't in the right frame of mind of doing things like that; it depends on the resources you're given as well.
The same thing happens in evolution an 'acceleration' though inaccurate is a good way of explaining. Once we got thumbs to produce tools, and started eating meat to increase our protein + brain size/activity or whatever, our evolution 'accelerated' to what we are today.

[Supergrunch]

So you're saying that the following emotions helped us up the food chain: anxiety, surprise, guilt, fear, sadness. In what way?
These feelings allowed us to be sentient, intelligent and create society. Without society, we wouldn't be where we are today.
Edit: also, I have a question about evolution - since you obviously know a lot about it (I don't). A lot of people talk about the "modern man" debate and the great leap we have made, and this is constantly improving - why is it that we took tens of thousands of years to get from the first tools to Shakespeare, but we went from having no electricity to talking around the world with handheld plastic phones smaller than our hands in 200 years? This probably seems way off the topic of death now, but in a way - its still the same thing for me. Because my only relief from the certainty of non-existence is that to me, some things really don't add up.
I think you'll find some societies were developed way before this, such as the Egyptians, Mayans, Chinese, Romans etc. However, these societies were isolated and not entirely stable, and so all collapsed. However, more recently societies developed worldwide, and were able to communicate with one another. Additionally, inventions such as the transistor opened up limitless possibilites, allowing the human race to take leaps and bounds.

But then that's more about history than evolution.

[conzer16]

Yeah, you're being a bit of a knob here, what with your eletist atheistic stance. In fact, it's you who is being close minded, Conzer is a nice guy, I don't see why you have to label him as the archetypal Christian. In fact, I don't think I actually know any particularly close minded Christians. The fact remains that just because someone is close minded, it doesn't mean that their religion is to blame. In saying this, you're being just as bad as those religious zealots that turn up at your door and don't take no for an answer. Cut it out.


That was pretty much the point I was trying to make.

I think we move on to level 1-2.

I sure hope so.

[Haden]

Yeah, you're being a bit of a knob here, what with your eletist atheistic stance. In fact, it's you who is being close minded, Conzer is a nice guy, I don't see why you have to label him as the archetypal Christian. In fact, I don't think I actually know any particularly close minded Christians. The fact remains that just because someone is close minded, it doesn't mean that their religion is to blame. In saying this, you're being just as bad as those religious zealots that turn up at your door and don't take no for an answer. Cut it out.


Your bang on the money man very good post.

[Rummy]

So you're saying that the following emotions helped us up the food chain: anxiety, surprise, guilt, fear, sadness. In what way?

Anxeity - Triggers such reactions as the fight or flight reaction, helping us to react to danger and be aware of it before it is too late. It now remains because it has had no reason to die out, might still play a part in survival.
Surprise - Kind of the same, when we get surprised we tend to scream. Why would we scream? To alert those around us of danger, scream and someone hears, they know something is wrong. Again, remained with us because it has had no reason to die out, might still play a part in survival.
Guilt - Can't really explain this one beyond reciprocation and bonding with others/interacting, somehow guilt helped us survive? Helped us be emphatic?
Fear - Well, kind of the same as anxiety.
Sadness - Kind of the same as guilt, it helped us empathise and relate to others, possibly getting a favour in return, good interaction led to the development of a society, and us being a social species. There is no denying the human race is one big society.

That's the thing with evolution, it's a case of survival of the fittest, but sometimes things don't 'evolve out' over time if they are not hampering survival. I forget the name for such things that still remain in organisms through evolution, from when they were needed to survive, but no longer so. I think the appendix is one such example, and erm...dewclaws? I think that's the name of the thing I'm thinking of.
I never used to understand evolution myself, but it's kind of like a natural breeding process. Like how greyhounds are bred to be fast, their speed is related to their genes.

Speed could be used as an example of evolution actually, say a group of some animal lives near a pack of fast animals like cheetahs. All the fast animals can outrun the cheetahs and survive, whereas the slow ones will get caught and killed, and with them the 'slow' genes, being as they are now dead, they can no longer reproduce and pass on their 'slow' genes. Given that it happens per generation, it's quite a slow process, but eventually over time, that species living near those cheetahs(assuming nothing changes) evolve into faster animals. I hadn't meant to make such a long post, but hopefully it helps with anyone not understanding evolution(of course all the examples and explanations are madeup by me, and therefore shouldn't be taken to be accurate at all)


Edit: also, I have a question about evolution - since you obviously know a lot about it (I don't). A lot of people talk about the "modern man" debate and the great leap we have made, and this is constantly improving - why is it that we took tens of thousands of years to get from the first tools to Shakespeare, but we went from having no electricity to talking around the world with handheld plastic phones smaller than our hands in 200 years? This probably seems way off the topic of death now, but in a way - its still the same thing for me. Because my only relief from the certainty of non-existence is that to me, some things really don't add up.

I think the first example was limited by biology, and the process of evolution, which is a very slight and slow process. The second example however, is a technological difference, not a biological one. We got more intelligent after those tools, developed language and poetry etc. When electricity and mobiles telephones came along, we were already intelligent enough to use/develop them, we were already capable. If that makes sense?


I think the whole issue of afterlifes, and there being something after we die, is just a human issue. How much of your life and things around you do you believe in without proof? I'd be willing to say not alot, whereas alot of people tend to baselessly believe there is some sort of afterlife(or rather refuse to believe there is nothing after we die). Someone(Think it was Shorty himself) asked how we can be so calm about it believing it to be true that there is nothing after we die, why aren't we worried that we'll reach the end of our lives with a ton of regrets? I think it's the reason itself, the fact that we will be dead and no longer existant, and therefore actually unable to have any regrets beyond those last few minutes.

[4q2]

For the record I am a total atheist and fortean, I will not be swayed on the unknown until it is solidly presented to me....

If you are a follower of logic and science though, try this for a take on the quantum theory of life after death:

http://www.opuslux.com/lifeafterdeath.htm

[Blackfox]

Yes, because the only fish there is is the Jesus fish.
I don't just bash chrisitanity-I bash religion.

I don't think you get the link. The fish is a symbol of Jesus, afaik, I don't think there's a Jesus Fish. Correct me if I'm wrong though...

Fair enough.
Oh, and sorry for the insults, I get people like this every day at school (even some of the teachers), and it annoys me massively. I apologize.

Weren't you the one who was complaining about spelling before. Again, as far as I know, your location sounds as if its in the UK.

---

As for my opinion. I like to believe in the afterlife. If you live a good life (by no means a perfect life, just a good life) to go to heaven. If you're a shit, you go to hell. I have a pretty Christian view on it, but by no means am I orthodox. You can't prove that I'm wrong, I can't prove that you're wrong.

I love love the way how Fish and KurtR have a vented hate of religion. Sure, some radical aspects fuck up the world a little, however that kind is the kind that sells newspapers and attracts rating on TV; therefore its the only part of religion that you'll see. It does a lot of good to, provides hope and happiness to millions. If you don't necessarily belive in it then there's no need to flame someone - if they're happy doing it peacefully, let them.

[Blue_Ninja0]

I think we move on to level 1-2.

No, i think you usually start at the beggining/half of the level again.

That means...

[Smalldude76]

If we die in battle, we are taken to live in Valhalla - a great reward. If we die of sickness or age, we go to Hel, an utterly depressing place where everyone's old and sickly. Ewwwww.

In all seriousness though, I do not believe in any afterlife. Why? If there was, we'd logically have the same state of mind - otherwise it wouldn't be an afterlife, just a new one making the current one useless (not saying that already isn't the case). Now, if we kept our state of mind (going with traditional happy heaven where we bathe in God's almighty orgasm) we'd be faced with all personal issues that bother us today - all the displeasures, pleasures, hates, loves, feelings, mental illnesses, etc. What the hell is the point of an afterlife? Well, one answer would be "to let more humans live on earth so more people can get into heaven". Why stop there? Let's cram heaven with as many fucks as possible. how do we ever converse with everyone? Teleportation. would everyone use this the way it was meant? Hell no - it's human nature to use things differently. in my case, i'd use it to annoy. I'm here, I'm there, I'm running off with your pants. That's right, your pantsless. As fun as it sounds, and as much as we can speculate, there's a single word for it: bullshit.

In my mind afterlife isn't feasibly possible. We'll never know until we die, but in my case, I expect to know nothing when I die (well, I'm sure some maggots will get to know me pretty well).


What is the point in all the strife, all the happiness, all the good and all the pain we all experience if in the end there is nothing.

Isn't life a gigantic waste of time if death has nothing to offer us?
And BINGO was his name-o :D
Really, live in the now - it's the only surefire way to get the most out of life if death has nothing to offer.

Edit - Fish, you're being so close-minded to religion! Not everyone of a religion has the same beliefs dude. There are close-minded Christians; I deal with them on a regular basis, but there are many more non-close-minded ones. Some have different beliefs, it's something to accept. Being aggressive in that way is no way to advance whatever cause you're aiming at.

[Supergrunch]

Religion confuses me. I don't understand why people would subscribe to a seemingly random system of beliefs. But I don't have any problem with people who are religious... I just don't quite understand them.

[AshMat]

I think it's most likel there is nothing after death, just trouble for the people you're leaving behind in the real world.

[Rick Dangerous]

Religion confuses me. I don't understand why people would subscribe to a seemingly random system of beliefs. But I don't have any problem with people who are religious... I just don't quite understand them.

It confuses me as it generally contradicts what its teaches. The prophets behind the religions seem to have the right ideas but people have twisted and manipulated what they have said to generally control people in my opinion

[Strider]

Religion confuses me. I don't understand why people would subscribe to a seemingly random system of beliefs. But I don't have any problem with people who are religious... I just don't quite understand them.

I'd say people choose religions because of what seems to 'fit in' with there thoughts about the after life and other things. Like people choose whats more believable in a way.

[DCK]

Then why were we here in the first place? Who put us here? Why does the Earth exist, with dirt that feeds plants, plants that make air and grow food we can eat... what's the point in the existence of anything (I'm not going to say "the meaning of life", because that's the other thread, but rather the meaning of everything, dead, alive, stone, flesh, molecules and atoms) if it simply stops existing one day?

Also I feel that the human mind is way too complicated to be entirely scientific. Our conscience can't just be something that's defined by electric patterns, nerves and muscles. If everything were scientific, we wouldn't have evolved to have feelings that are of no benefit to our efficiency or self-preservation - like anger, bitterness, sadness, depression, thoughtfulness. All we'd need is a sexual instinct and big claws to fight off predators. I honestly don't think science can explain the human being, which is a grain of hope I have that our minds won't just abruptly disappear when we die.
That's the difference between you and I. Because you find it hard to explain something and have a hard time accepting things that don't have reasons, you try to explain them with religion. I've always experienced that as a sign of weakness as religion basically takes away the need and challenge for you to answer things you don't know.

The human mind can be explained perfectly well with evolution. All the emotions we experience are key in complex society we have evolved. It's cruel to say that all we need is claws and sexual lust, because obviously that wouldn't have made us one of the most succesful species on the planet.

[Sarka]

You just die.

I agree.

It's like sleeping, with no dreams, resting or waking up. :)

[Rummy]

For the record I am a total atheist and fortean, I will not be swayed on the unknown until it is solidly presented to me....

If you are a follower of logic and science though, try this for a take on the quantum theory of life after death:

http://www.opuslux.com/lifeafterdeath.htm

What is a fortean? I swear I never seen that word before, and then it popped up like 10 times yesterday! Admittedly 9 of those times were probably in the same book and on the same subject, but it's still weird! Thanks for the quantum physics thing, I tried reading it last night but I could only think of AS physics and get confused and stuff :( I just read it through again though, and it is rather interesting, it helped me understand some principles of quantum physics too. A very interesting theory! I find it hard to believe that a consciousness is JUST made up of light though, otherwise, why do we even have bodies?
One thing it does make me think quite alot of Dust, and the Dust Theory from His Dark Materials, it's all quite interesting indeed!

[THE ganondorflol]

I like to belive that that tingly shoot that you sometimes get when your on the toilet having a poo or something lives on and floats around.

You're a stupid, stupid idiot. We're talking about something serious and you have to go and ruin it. I agree, Shorty, everything exists for a reason. Sure, the big bang may be true, but it happened for a reason. Maybe that reason was God. There is no evidence God doesn't exist, and explosions happen because something- someone triggers them.

[EEVILMURRAY]

Gee, your a happy person. 'We just die'. Now I'm really looking forward to it. Still, you d not know that at all.
"Still, you do not know that at all."
Neither do you, Mr Happy Place.
If you are good you get to watch never ending repeats of Neighbours.
If you are bad you have to watch never ending repeats of Eastenders.
Christ... I hope I've been good.

I think of death a bit like how you die on Metroid Prime, a bit of static then it's like a TV turning off.

[THE ganondorflol]

Then you are clearly insane, and need to see a doctor. And I'm sorry for being happy, but its better than being depressed.

[Mr. Bananagrabber]

You're from the ONM forums, aren't you?

[THE ganondorflol]

Who, me? Yes, I suppose... But that is a different story for another day...

[EEVILMURRAY]

You're from the ONM forums, aren't you?
That might be my fault. I do mention this forum a fair bit. Plus some other members [not here I mean] Link this site for some news article and whatnot.
Then you are clearly insane, and need to see a doctor. And I'm sorry for being happy, but its better than being depressed.
I'm insane for not believing in God and heaven etc? Fine.

And if by depressed you mean realistic, fine again.

[Ginger_Chris]

I wonder if primordial self replicating strands had this same discussion?

They were relf replicating when all the other molecules didn't that obviouly made them special. I wonder if they contemplated why they replicated by other molecules didn't. What was the purpose of this replication? Maybe they couldn't explain it, so they called it god, to make themselves feel special rather than just accepting it was a fluke based on the interaction between the fundamental forces that they replicated.

People believe God exists because they want to feel like they have a purpose and are somehow "special".

People believe in an afterlife because they don't want admit their own fragility and have given themselves a self profess purpose. Surely not believing in an afterlife is better, because it mean you value every second of life, because all it is is a stupidly unlike fluke in molecular chemistry that your here in the first place.

[THE ganondorflol]

Ask yourself this: How many scientists in the world? 1 million. Christians? 2.1 million (biggest world religion) So, there are 3 times the amount of religious people in the world than aethiests.Just not on this forum on in this country, that's all.

[Supergrunch]

I wonder if primordial self replicating strands had this same discussion?

They were relf replicating when all the other molecules didn't that obviouly made them special. I wonder if they contemplated why they replicated by other molecules didn't. What was the purpose of this replication? Maybe they couldn't explain it, so they called it god, to make themselves feel special rather than just accepting it was a fluke based on the interaction between the fundamental forces that they replicated.

People believe God exists because they want to feel like they have a purpose and are somehow "special".

People believe in an afterlife because they don't want admit their own fragility and have given themselves a self profess purpose. Surely not believing in an afterlife is better, because it mean you value every second of life, because all it is is a stupidly unlike fluke in molecular chemistry that your here in the first place.
I agree with you to some extent there. But why do you think life is a fluke? There are so many planets that you'd think there would be a relatively high chance of life existing on one of them. Also, saying why this planet is a stupid question- if life only exists on one planet, then it is this one, beacuse we are on it.

Also, just because you can see why people want to believe in Gods, that doesn't give you reason to dismiss the idea of a god entirely.
Ask yourself this: How many scientists in the world? 1 million. Christians? 2.1 million (biggest world religion) So, there are 3 times the amount of religious people in the world than aethiests.Just not on this forum on in this country, that's all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

Also, don't be ridiculous. All scientists are not atheists, and there are plenty of atheists who aren't scientists.

[DCK]

If there was heaven, I wonder why we would have life.

[THE ganondorflol]

To determine whether or not you are a good person? Also, I never thought of it in the way all scientists aren't aethiests- I'm seeing the bigger picture.

[Bowser57]

To determine whether or not you are a good person? Also, I never thought of it in the way all scientists aren't aethiests- I'm seeing the bigger picture.

So this god that's all knowing doesn't know which of us he should be sending to hell yet? (He loves us all too right though? So he won't really send anyone to hell will he?)

[DCK]

To determine whether or not you are a good person? Also, I never thought of it in the way all scientists aren't aethiests- I'm seeing the bigger picture.
So basically 'God' is basically playing a game with us for 80+ years to see if we are good enough to join him in heaven, like some sick 6 billion people Big Brother? Why has 'He' not made us all 'good' in the first place? What about people dying young, who haven't got the chance to prove themselves?

Religious people often ask reasons for everything about the universe, but what exactly would be the reason for God?

[THE ganondorflol]

Some people think Hell isn't all fiery depths- but being away from God. Also, God gives us free-will- we're the ones with the power to help God decide which ones to send to hell or not.

[DCK]

Some people think Hell isn't all fiery depths- but being away from God. Also, God gives us free-will- we're the ones with the power to help God decide which ones to send to hell or not.
So why can't we have free will in heaven right away? After all, if we're too naughty, and He can't bring Himself (despite his everlasting forgivingness) to forgiving us, he can send us too hell.

If He's watching us going about our life for nothing more than His personal entertainment then He's certainly not worth believing in. It's a cruel plan really.

Basically God sounds a lot like Santa Claus to me. If you've behaving yourself well, you get a reward, and if you're not you get punished. Only adults believe this story as well.

[THE ganondorflol]

You mean Santa isn't real???

[darksnowman]

Dude, we would'nt be separate from God if Adam and Eve hadnt ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil when they were tempted in the garden. As soon as sin came in, God had to remove himself from us. He's a perfect being and can't have sin in his presence.

Before the fall of man (when they ate the fruit) God would come to Adam and Even in the cool of the evenings and walk and talk with them in the garden. It was perfect.

THE ganondorf, what are you're beliefs exactly? I'm interested to know, as you called yourself a Christian.

[Ashley]

Ask yourself this: How many scientists in the world? 1 million. Christians? 2.1 million (biggest world religion) So, there are 3 times the amount of religious people in the world than aethiests.Just not on this forum on in this country, that's all.

And im sure there are probably more brunettes than blondes. What does statistics have to do with anything? A greater number does not mean they are correct.

And are we talking about Christians who actively....Christian it up? Or anyone who was once christened? I was christened but im pretty sure God wouldn't really approve of my goings on.

[DCK]

Dude, we would'nt be separate from God if Adam and Eve hadnt ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil when they were tempted in the garden. As soon as sin came in, God had to remove himself from us. He's a perfect being and can't have sin in his presence.

Before the fall of man (when they ate the fruit) God would come to Adam and Even in the cool of the evenings and walk and talk with them in the garden. It was perfect.
That is contradictive.

1) God defines sins and who is sinful
2) God is forgiving of sins

Yet, God cannot have sin in his presence. Also, God is narrow-minded by the fact that when Eva sins, humanity sins. Similar narrow-mindedness is what starts racism. God is even sinful himself with that decision.

[darksnowman]

How can a perfect being be sinful? I see no contradiction, maybe I didnt describe the situation well enough though.

If you want/ need, I can find some solid info and quotes for you? :smile:

[DCK]

I see no contradiction.According to what I got to learn on my catholic primary school:

(1) God is the one who defined the sins (revealed them to Moses)
(2) God is forgiving

From this follows: (3) God defines who are the sinful

Yet: He's a perfect being and can't have sin in his presence.
When it's entirely up to himself what sin is and what's not. That is contradictive.

Secondly he generalizes humanity to be sinful because Eva was.

Note that I don't believe the Bible story; I'm merely pointing out contradictions that make me find it hard to buy.

[EEVILMURRAY]

You mean Santa isn't real???
Is there any point in answering? You'll probably disagree with whatever we say like this topic.

[Supergrunch]

To determine whether or not you are a good person? Also, I never thought of it in the way all scientists aren't aethiests- I'm seeing the bigger picture.
Maybe, but your argument goes like this:

There are 1 million scientists.

There are 2.1 million Christians.

2.1 million > 1 million

Therefore there is a God.

That's not an argument, it's just random unconnected statements.

[The fish]

Ask yourself this: How many scientists in the world? 1 million. Christians? 2.1 million (biggest world religion) So, there are 3 times the amount of religious people in the world than atheists.Just not on this forum on in this country, that's all.

You may notice that a lot of the religious people are in the countries and areas of the world (i.e. deep south in the US) that have shite education. They don't know any better, and are taught in schools that their religion is correct. They aren't taught science (at least not well), and therefore they don't bother to question their religion. In the better educated world, what you generally get left with is the hardcore people.

Here's a thought: if there are 2.1 million christians in the world and 1.3 million muslims, then only one thing is certain: a hell of a lot of people are definitely wrong...:indeed:

Oh, and I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but the God in the Old Testament is the evilest, meanest, son-of-a-bitch ever created...

That's not an argument, it's just random unconnected statements.

I prefer the term "ramblings of a maniac":wink:

[Fierce_LiNk]

Guys, I've been keeping up to speed with the goings-on in this thread (trust me, I'm everywhere) and if this topic is going to stay open, we're going to need to have less of the flaming.

By all rights, discss. This is a discussion forum after all. However, I don't want people shitting on other people's beliefs or what they believe in. They've got a right to believe in God or to not believe in God. I think it's wrong to force people by saying "you prick, there is no god" etc.

You get the jist. Just keep it clean.

[Haden]

You may notice that a lot of the religious people are in the countries and areas of the world (i.e. deep south in the US) that have shite education. They don't know any better, and are taught in schools that their religion is correct. They aren't taught science (at least not well), and therefore they don't bother to question their religion. In the better educated world, what you generally get left with is the hardcore people.

Here's a thought: if there are 2.1 million christians in the world and 1.3 million muslims, then only one thing is certain: a hell of a lot of people are definitely wrong...:indeed:

Oh, and I don't know if anyone else has noticed, but the God in the Old Testament is the evilest, meanest, son-of-a-bitch ever created...



I prefer the term "ramblings of a maniac":wink:

Wow just wow. Your accusing religious people of lacking an education and you just flame people.

I agree that it doesnt matter about numbers when it comes to belief system.

Just out of intrest what do you mean by evil when you say god in old testement. I dont understand how evil and good fit into a atheistic viewpoint.

[The fish]

Wow just wow. Your accusing religious people of lacking an education and you just flame people.

I agree that it doesnt matter about numbers when it comes to belief system.

Just out of intrest what do you mean by evil when you say god in old testement. I dont understand how evil and good fit into a atheistic viewpoint.

Er...most religious people do lack a good education. They don't know, for example, any other way that the earth could have formed.

By evil I mean that in the old testament the God allows rape of girls as an acceptable alternative to homosexuality, he kills almost everyone, he not only allows, but actively encourages (and not to mention commands...) the massacring of thousands of people non-believers by the Israelites. Is that evil enough for you?
I can have a view of good and evil because I have morals. Or do I have to be religious to have them?:hmm:

And how am I flaming???:wtf:

[DCK]

I agree with The Fish that God, in the Old Testament, commits a lot that he himself describes as sin. Yet he'll only allow you in heaven if you haven't been sinful.

[The fish]

I agree with The fish that God, in the Old Testament, commits a lot that he himself describes as sin. Yet he'll only allow you in heaven if you haven't been sinful.

He's a bit of a hypocritical basted, isn't he?:heh:

[DCK]

He's a bit of a hypocritical basted, isn't he?:heh:
Simply put, yeah. It's one of the major reasons why I don't believe. I wouldn't put it that harshly though, because I guess you'll offend Haden and some others now.

[The fish]

Simply put, yeah. It's one of the major reasons why I don't believe. I wouldn't put it that harshly though, because I guess you'll offend Haden and some others now.

Well the ":heh:" suggests that I mean it light-heartedly...

[Hellfire]

To be honest, when I was a kid I was a a catholic private school for 4 years, so I was obviously catholic, but when I got out, I thought more and I just saw religion as an escape from real life or as an excuse, I can never 100% believe that there is a God without proof, that's just the scientist in me. I do believe that there may be higher levels of existance like us and that would be closest to a God, who knows. But, sometimes, when I'm suffering, I'm kind of a hypocrite and I wish there was a God that would help me.
But, I also think like this, if there's a God, a perfect being, why would he share the good and evil perceptions that we, human beings have? It doesn't make sense. And if there really is a good God, like the catholics believe, would it matter if people worship him? Isn't the need of worship a human caracteristic (and flaw). And if he really is a good God, he doesn't care if we believe or not, just as long as we are good inside. That's what I think anyway, but I don't look down on people who believe, just on fanatics.

[The fish]

Just so you all know, I am not a totally fanatic atheist. If evidence was presented to me that proved that a certain religion is correct, then I would convert. However, the evidence is overwhelmingly anti-religion.

[Rummy]

EDIT:I managed to miss two pages again!

You're a stupid, stupid idiot. We're talking about something serious and you have to go and ruin it. I agree, Shorty, everything exists for a reason. Sure, the big bang may be true, but it happened for a reason. Maybe that reason was God. There is no evidence God doesn't exist, and explosions happen because something- someone triggers them.

Firstly, lighten up a bit.
Secondly, why is there a reason? You say the big bang happened for a reason, why is that so? How do you know it happened for a reason, rather than just happening? This is where the problem lies, the human problem, that we must have some sort of reason and explanation for everything, and can't seem to cope with the fact sometimes there just isn't a reason or explanation.

Ask yourself this: How many scientists in the world? 1 million. Christians? 2.1 million (biggest world religion) So, there are 3 times the amount of religious people in the world than aethiests.Just not on this forum on in this country, that's all.

I find that very hard to believe. Firstly, 1 million 'scientists' in the world? I think it's probably ALOT more than that given the world population, also, define scientist.
2.1million Christians in the world? That's a pretty small proportion given the world population. Christianity being biggest world religion? You want to back that up with something? Seriously, I don't think a religion with just 2.1million followers would qualify anywhere for being the biggest world religion. Unless your 'world' is like the size of london or something. Just where did you get all of this information from? I gotta say, you aren't helping yourself come across as educated at all.

I agree with alot of ginger chris's post earlier, which I am going to quote, because I feel it is worthy of another quotage.

I wonder if primordial self replicating strands had this same discussion?

They were relf replicating when all the other molecules didn't that obviouly made them special. I wonder if they contemplated why they replicated by other molecules didn't. What was the purpose of this replication? Maybe they couldn't explain it, so they called it god, to make themselves feel special rather than just accepting it was a fluke based on the interaction between the fundamental forces that they replicated.

People believe God exists because they want to feel like they have a purpose and are somehow "special".

People believe in an afterlife because they don't want admit their own fragility and have given themselves a self profess purpose. Surely not believing in an afterlife is better, because it mean you value every second of life, because all it is is a stupidly unlike fluke in molecular chemistry that your here in the first place.

[DCK]

In fact, science has proven things happen without a reason. As it has to do with quantum mechanics, I won't explain, but stuff in very small things all around you happens randomly.

That means the Big Bang could also have occurred without reason.

[Supergrunch]

And how am I flaming???:wtf:
The difference between flaming and destroying someone's argument:

Flaming:
I prefer the term "ramblings of a maniac":wink:

Destroying someone's argument:
Maybe, but your argument goes like this:

There are 1 million scientists.

There are 2.1 million Christians.

2.1 million > 1 million

Therefore there is a God.

That's not an argument, it's just random unconnected statements.

By the way, before anyone tries to say I'm aggressively forcing people to be atheists, I'm an agnostic.

[The fish]

Err...it's called a joke...
You may have heard of them. (That was one too, by the way)

[Kurtle Squad]

Ask yourself this: How many scientists in the world? 1 million. Christians? 2.1 million (biggest world religion) So, there are 3 times the amount of religious people in the world than aethiests.Just not on this forum on in this country, that's all.
The 'whole' world also once thought the world was flat....because they didn't know what was 'at the end'. ;)

[Supergrunch]

Err...it's called a joke...
You may have heard of them. (That was one too, by the way)
I know, but people take it as flaming. I'd be wary about directly insulting people.

[Mr. Bananagrabber]

Err...it's called a joke...


Sums up most of this thread to be brutally honest.

[Ginger_Chris]

Btw, just thought you'd like to know but there are a large number of scientists that do believe in God. They see the world and how it works so perfectly, if the value of electrons charge, protons mass etc were even slightly different then the universe would have annihilated itself in few nanoseconds, or expanded and cooled to quickly that everything would be close to absolute zero.

The fundamental constants of physics are so finely tuned for the universe to exist, never mind for self replicating molecules to exist. Once you have those, evolution takes over. Given the right set of stimuli, cells form, then multicellular organisms. once those happen you have to be lucky for the planets star not to end its lifetime, or a asteroid to come and destroy the planet. Added onto the fact heavy elements necessary for life as we know it HAVE tocome from a second or third generation star. The odd are looking massively stacked against life.

But we're here.

Is this because god created the universe to his exact specifications in the beginning? (sorry guys but the idea of a god actually existing and creating adam eve and all thats stuff just doesnt make any logical sense whatsoever so im not even going to consider that one).

Its possible that god created the universe he wanted by setting those values. I prefer the idea that there are an infinite number of universes and it just so happens that we exist in one of the infinite number that have life, as opposed to the infinite number where mass and energy have yet to separate.

We are here because through a complex series of fortunate events, we have no real purpose, we just are. Does a quark have a purpose? no, its just influenced by its surrounding and influence quarks around it, just like humans. Even the purpose to continue the species, isnt really a purpose, its just how we go here, by millions of generations of other things reproducing, and not getting eaten by something larger or infected by something smaller.

Basically, life is special, not because a supreme being created us, but because we're so lucky to have it, that its a complete waste to squander it.

[Rummy]

"God does not play dice."

A famous quote, from a famous scientist about quantum physics, who believed devoutly in God. He was Albert Einstein, who I'm sure you know was a pioneer of physics. Science and Religion are not mutually exclusive, and thinking so doesn't make you much better than those people thinking that all christians are naiive and narrow minded.

I happen to think life, or existence, is an inevitability either way. It just so happens that in our case we ended up being the dominant species of this planet, and the dominant lifeforms. I don't find it hard to explain or believe, given the theory of evolution and how it took place over a very large number of years. Had we just appeared as we are one day, or were the story of adam and eve/garden of eden true, then THAT is what I would find hard to believe, that we could actually come from nothing into such an advanced being. I suppose the irony of it is that I can believe however that as an individual we can dissappear into nothing in the blink of an eye.

[4q2]

What is a fortean? I swear I never seen that word before, and then it popped up like 10 times yesterday! Admittedly 9 of those times were probably in the same book and on the same subject, but it's still weird! Thanks for the quantum physics thing, I tried reading it last night but I could only think of AS physics and get confused and stuff :( I just read it through again though, and it is rather interesting, it helped me understand some principles of quantum physics too. A very interesting theory! I find it hard to believe that a consciousness is JUST made up of light though, otherwise, why do we even have bodies?
One thing it does make me think quite alot of Dust, and the Dust Theory from His Dark Materials, it's all quite interesting indeed!

Fortean simply put is a word for someone who neither believes or disbelieves until the evidence is presented in full.
I've never been into the whole blind faith thing, but afterlife sort of slants against my logic of things anyway, it makes no sense in the religious perspective for me.

The quantum theory cutting out all the crap is pretty believable dependant on which way it is interpretted or which version you read.
The most understandable version I came across is the brain (presuming it is the seat of the soul) is nothing but electrical and chemical energy. Energy never dies it just changes form, "each action creates an opposite and equal reaction" . The electrical impulses/energies of the brain cannot just zap out of existence in quantum physics......But would that energy be still bound for a indefinite period of time after death and would that still be a conscious working structure without the tissue of a body ?

I cant see anything giving me an answer in this lifetime and if there is a christian style afterlife, I'm most likely gonna eternally burn in hell anyway....home again.
At least I wont need to worry about heating bills.:yay:

[Ginger_Chris]

"God does not play dice."

Most badly quoted phrase ever.

In quantum everything is based on probabilities, You never know the exact position of any particle, it always has a probability distribution. its influence on other particles cannot be determined based on where it is, but where it is on average. This uncertainty in anything is best summed up by hisenbergs uncertainty principle, to non commuting operators (position and momentum, or energy and time) have an uncertainty product ofat least h(bar)/2.

Einstien was a strong supporter of particle theory, and that underlying quantum physics was a strict set of rules. That quote is his disapproval of the direction quantum mechanics was going, not about the existence of God.

Einstein worked most of his life trying to find the underlying laws without success, and given the fact that quantum mechanics has had so many successes and proved right countless times, it seems on this fact Einstein was wrong. Einstien was the greatest physics by far, ever. He had so many origional ideas, and should have won 5 noble prizes for works all completed in just 1905.

Taking that quote out of context using it for the debate whether God exists or not, is just undermining everything Einstein did that he got right.

[Smalldude76]

Er...most religious people do lack a good education. They don't know, for example, any other way that the earth could have formed.

Without going to Wikipedia, can you please enlighten us on another way?

[Ginger_Chris]

Without going to Wikipedia, can you please enlighten us on another way?

*me, me, me, let me answer pleeeaassseee*

[The fish]

Without going to Wikipedia, can you please enlighten us on another way?

As to how the earth is formed? Simple: gravity.

Sums up most of this thread to be brutally honest.

Yeah, that sounds about right...

[DCK]

Is this because god created the universe to his exact specifications in the beginning?No, this one can be explained through logic again. The universe may have been recreated an infinite number of times before the universal constants happened to be right to make life. The fact that we're here to observe that is logical, after all, this universe is right for us by definition. That doesn't make this universe special. Also, life may well be created with other universal constants. There is simply no way to test this.

Also, Einstein wasn't religious. That's a misconception.

Note that I'm no atheistic fundamentalist or anything; logic is sometimes stronger than the supernatural however.

[Ginger_Chris]

No, this one can be explained through logic again. The universe may have been recreated an infinite number of times before the universal constants happened to be right to make life. The fact that we're here to observe that is logical, after all, this universe is right for us by definition. That doesn't make this universe special. Also, life may well be created with other universal constants. There is simply no way to test this.

Also, Einstein wasn't religious. That's a misconception.

Note that I'm no atheistic fundamentalist or anything; logic is sometimes stronger than the supernatural however.

You read the rest of my post and next post right?

However your "logic" there is flawed. If you believe there is only one universe your logic has no meaning. If you believe there is an infinite number of universe (as I do), then it makes perfect sense.

The flaw is that at the present time neither of those beliefs have proofs. We have no idea what happened before or at the moment of the big bang, only what happened a few femto-seconds after (10^-15). We also have no proof of wether there are an infinite number of universes.

When there is no proof either way, Its a matter of belief, which one seems most likely to you as a person. Hence you can't argue about logic in this particular case, as your making an assumption that isn't necessarily true or proved.

As someone who is a is strongly atheist, and often has discussion with people who are devout Christians (and also know a fair amount of science), there is no right answer because eventually it does come down to a belief. Many part of Christianity can be disproved but there are many as Scientists we simply don't know, and possibly will never know.

[Rummy]

Most badly quoted phrase ever.

In quantum everything is based on probabilities, You never know the exact position of any particle, it always has a probability distribution. its influence on other particles cannot be determined based on where it is, but where it is on average. This uncertainty in anything is best summed up by hisenbergs uncertainty principle, to non commuting operators (position and momentum, or energy and time) have an uncertainty product ofat least h(bar)/2.

Einstien was a strong supporter of particle theory, and that underlying quantum physics was a strict set of rules. That quote is his disapproval of the direction quantum mechanics was going, not about the existence of God.

Einstein worked most of his life trying to find the underlying laws without success, and given the fact that quantum mechanics has had so many successes and proved right countless times, it seems on this fact Einstein was wrong. Einstien was the greatest physics by far, ever. He had so many origional ideas, and should have won 5 noble prizes for works all completed in just 1905.

Taking that quote out of context using it for the debate whether God exists or not, is just undermining everything Einstein did that he got right.

I know the quote and I know what he meant by it, my point was supposed to be that a scientist would be unlikely to talk about god like that unless they believed in god. My point was to be that Einstein had a strong religious belief, whilst being a scientist, something THE gannondorf seemed to be implying isn't possible.
I believe the quote is him insisting that god does not play with probabilities, that everything is set out, and that there is no chance, or is that wrong?

[Kurtle Squad]

I find religious scientists are just 'religioners' that try and explain science by adding God because they ignore the truth and try and twist things (like Christianity espesially always does).

[Ginger_Chris]

I know the quote and I know what he meant by it, my point was supposed to be that a scientist would be unlikely to talk about god like that unless they believed in god. My point was to be that Einstein had a strong religious belief, whilst being a scientist, something THE gannondorf seemed to be implying isn't possible.
I believe the quote is him insisting that god does not play with probabilities, that everything is set out, and that there is no chance, or is that wrong?

Einstein believed the world was deterministic, Quantum Physics says it isn't. Einsteins quote has nothing to do with God, just that he believed the Universe acts in a deterministic manner.

[Rummy]

It has nothing to do with God? How can a quote about god have nothing to do with god? I am not saying it is a quote about god, just a quote showing a belief in god. What do you mean by deterministic?

[mcj metroid]

wow this thread is still going eh.Am Well i don't believe in god but i have no other solutions to how the world was created.

[Ginger_Chris]

Deterministic is the Idea that we knew the position and momentum and energy state etc of every particle in the universe, we could predict exactly what was going to happen. On a macroscopic level (ie things like people, balls, tables, planets etc) this is fairly true due to the statistical properties of having insane numbers of atoms in a object. Think mechanics, knowing a set of equations you can plot the trajectory of a ball or something.

In quantum mechanics this isn't the case, as particles only have a probabiltiy of being somewhere, and you can't know their exact position and momentum at same time etc. You can't know exactly know what will happen. If two neutron and an Uranium-235 nucleus collide, they could scatter from each other, the neutron could be absorbed and a photon emitted, or the neutron could be absorbed and the thing undergoes fission, releasing huge amounts of energy. However you have no idea whats going to happen, and if it undergoes fission what the products will be. You only have the probability of things happening. When you have a large number of interactions happening, they they form distributions, and you can fairly accurately predict what will happen ON AVERAGE.

Einstein believed all these probabilities have an underlying set of laws that determined what was going to happen. Spent most of his later life working on this problem. The God part of the quote, was him showing that it was what he believed. Its a quote about Belief, not about God.

[Rummy]

So he didn't believe in God at all then? I know about quantum physics not be exact, but relying on probabilties, but my physics teacher told me the quote was about him believing things to be exact, no room for error in a way. The point I was using the quote for was not to say whether god exists or not, not to highlight his opinions of quantum physics, but just to point out he believed in god, or is that what you dispute?

[Ginger_Chris]

He was religious but in a completely different way to all the major religions. His ideas of god were very different to anything in the Bible. He believed in a cosmic force, like god and nature were interchangeable. Anyway, you should do some research on it.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony in what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of human beings." Albert Einstein

As a concept I think its a lot better than the biblical versions, but i still think everything seems to make more sense without the concept at all.

[Flaight]

I was a student of science some years ago before I started to work and I tend to think the theory of reincarnation is rather scientific and logical. So I tend to think "Life force" is recycled, without being religeous. It's the "most scientific" line of thought for me.

[Ginger_Chris]

I was a student of science some years ago before I started to work and I tend to think the theory of reincarnation is rather scientific and logical. So I tend to think "Life force" is recycled, without being religeous. It's the "most scientific" line of thought for me.

So where did the life force for the first animal come from. Does bacteria or a self replicating strand of protien contain life force? How about an virus? a non-replicating molecule? atom? proton? quark?

If life force is recycled, if there are more animals now than before does that mean we have more life force per organise than before (theres is a greater density of life in an organism)? If there are less animals now than before are we deemed more alive than animals before us due to higher density? Are some animals more alive than other, if so what decided this; mass, intelligence, number of cells, proximity to other animals?

Can this life force be created or destroyed? How does it pass through a medium (ie from a dead body to living body). Does its effects travel faster than the speed of light? does this mean that life force in different parts of the universe builds up? Can it travel being living animals?

Most importantly do you have any proof, derived mathmatical formula or hypothesis that can be tested?

(I'm not deliberaterly being annoying, just asking you to explain you views. If you can defend them clearly, then you actually believe in them and have thought about what you believe, rather than just revieting whats written in a book)

(oh and I assume your using the word force in a completely non-scientic way. I prefer life quantity, or just life. I wonder if theres a unit measurement of life. or if it obeys heisenberg's uncertainty principle... hmm much to muse on instead of doing productive work)

[Smalldude76]

As to how the earth is formed? Simple: gravity.

you describe the forming of our planet with one word? Gravity has probably helped, but you neglect everything else.

I find religious scientists are just 'religioners' that try and explain science by adding God because they ignore the truth and try and twist things (like Christianity espesially always does).

Any examples? Not all scientists with religions are "ignoring truth" and "twist things". Doctors heal despite their ethical beliefs, they legally do the things they're comfortable doing.

the people who created your computer? Scientists. The chances someone at Intal/AMD/NVidia heading certain chip developments has a religion? Very high.



Chris: it's understandable that you'd expect answers for all of that, but it could be things people don't know. Buddha believed in enlightenment and people probably thought he was crazy for his actions. I experience the barrage regularly as an athiest - if I don't believe in God, then I must know how the earth was created, why we're here, how we got here, where we go after we die. I don't know the answers - no one does. You can't expect the same from Flaight. Maybe he'll have answers he's thought of/hypothesised, I don't know, but he can't say 'this happened and thus this occurred thus resulting in this and that, and I promise you it happened'. It doesn't work that way. it's understandable that you'd ask them though, but anyone who can answer those questions is, as you said, "just revieting whats written in a book"

[THE ganondorflol]

He's a bit of a hypocritical basted, isn't he?:heh:

How can you criticise other people's education when you can't even spell 'bastard'.

This is what I believe: Jesus Christ is our Saviour. Their is evidence he existed. Jews and Muslims believe in him (although differently from Christians) We should not flame eachother out here, especially The Fish. I am not putting down your aethiest views, but you are offending me and my beliefs. Jesus almost certainly existed; whether or not he was the Messiah or just a loony is up to you. I will not criticise your beliefs if you do not criticise mine.

[uəʌəsʎɐɾ]

How can you criticise other people's education when you can't even spell 'bastard'.

This is what I believe: Jesus Christ is our Saviour. Their is evidence he existed.
lol...

Anyway, don't know if anyone's mentioned it yet, but i'm rather a fan of the Discworld philosophy; whatever you think will happen after death will indeed happen.

You think a golden chariot with two fat singing ladies carries you to valhallah? It happens. Think there's a period of 20 years worth of walking through a desert finding the oasis of happiness? Bingo. You got it.

My Name Is Earl had a nice idea, again don't know if someone already mentioned such light-hearted theories (which clearly aren't real ;)) - after you die you get to watch your whole life again on tv.

[THE ganondorflol]

I loved that programme...

[Kurtle Squad]

Any examples? Not all scientists with religions are "ignoring truth" and "twist things". Doctors heal despite their ethical beliefs, they legally do the things they're comfortable doing.

the people who created your computer? Scientists. The chances someone at Intal/AMD/NVidia heading certain chip developments has a religion? Very high

I meant 'creationism' scientists.

How can you criticise other people's education when you can't even spell 'bastard'.

This is what I believe: Jesus Christ is our Saviour. Their is evidence he existed. Jews and Muslims believe in him (although differently from Christians) We should not flame eachother out here, especially The Fish. I am not putting down your aethiest views, but you are offending me and my beliefs. Jesus almost certainly existed; whether or not he was the Messiah or just a loony is up to you. I will not criticise your beliefs if you do not criticise mine.
There is evidence he existed, and was a magician...nothing more. If you're willing to think that some David Blaine is a messiah then that's up to you.

I find it very difficult to believe anything a religion says after it explains the start of life & humanity as a magical man in the sky creating a family of inbreds to start the human race.

[Supergrunch]

Einstein believed the world was deterministic, Quantum Physics says it isn't. Einsteins quote has nothing to do with God, just that he believed the Universe acts in a deterministic manner.
Wasn't Einstein's quote merely a semi-joke, to show that he didn't believe in quantum mechanics? A little like a less extreme version of Schroedinger's cat...

Anyway, I disagree with vitalism. I think life is an emergent property of chemical laws, one so emergent that it takes on bizzare, sometimes undefinable, characteristics of its own.

[The fish]

How can you criticise other people's education when you can't even spell 'bastard'.

This is what I believe: Jesus Christ is our Saviour. Their is evidence he existed. Jews and Muslims believe in him (although differently from Christians) We should not flame eachother out here, especially The Fish. I am not putting down your aethiest views, but you are offending me and my beliefs. Jesus almost certainly existed; whether or not he was the Messiah or just a loony is up to you. I will not criticise your beliefs if you do not criticise mine.

Well, er...sorry, my primary school never taught me how to spell "bastard"...
And before you criticize my spelling, learn to spell the following: "each other", "atheist", "criticize", and "The fish" (there's only one capital letter-the 'T')
Elsewhere:
*I believe Jesus existed.
*I wasn't flaming anyone. It appears humor and religion cannot co-exist...
*I don't apologize for offending you. Religious people are too defensive and protected-why the hell can't I disagree and argue against someones opinion?
Oh, and before you say "do you never get offended?", I get offended by people who can only debate and argue by saying "Stop! You've offended me!"
Racists, sexists, idiots, and hypocrites also offend me. For example: If some chav if the street says something racist about a black guy, I get offended. However, most christians don't give a toss about someone saying "Mohammad was not the prophet of Allah!", but get up in arms about someone saying "Jesus was not the son of God!"
Do you see the difference? When it comes to religion, people are only out to defend their own.
In fact, as I type, I am co-ordinating, via MSN messenger, an experiment over this very idea, involving my (very, very christian) Head of House, and the two above phrases, and observing his reaction. I'll get back to you with the results.

***Please note: there is humor in places in this reply. You may be unfamiliar with the concept! (that was humor too...)***

[Supergrunch]

If I were to laugh at everything you believe (or don't believe) in, would I be justified in saying "religion and atheism do not mix" if you didn't find it funny?

[The fish]

If I were to laugh at everything you believe (or don't believe) in, would I be justified in saying "religion and atheism do not mix" if you didn't find it funny?

Firstly, I haven't laughed at what people believe in, I have laughed at some people's shitty style of arguing and debating. I should know-I do debating at school.

Secondly, I would laugh if you explained why you found what I believe in funny.


I'm detecting a serious sense of humor failure in this thread...;)

[Supergrunch]

Firstly, I haven't laughed at what people believe in, I have laughed at some people's shitty style of arguing and debating. I should know-I do debating at school.

Secondly, I would laugh if you explained why you found what I believe in funny.


I'm detecting a serious sense of humor failure in this thread...;)
I'm not trying to claim that THE ganondorf has good arguments, but you should perhaps lay off him a bit- it's obvious you're offending him, even if it may seem like a joke to you. Also, he interprets what you are saying as laughing at his religion (even if you aren't).

[The3rdChildren]

We become spirits in the afterlife and if we were remarkable people during life may get to keep our bodies to train and stuff.

Wow, this guy makes a shitload of sense!

Nice theory, buddy.

[The fish]

Wow, this guy makes a shitload of sense!

Nice theory, buddy.

Now that is what I call flaming and taking the piss...;)

[Supergrunch]

Now that is what I call flaming and taking the piss...;)
I think The3rdChildren should lay off himself or he's going to get banned. :wink:

[Hellfire]

Wow, this guy makes a shitload of sense!

Nice theory, buddy.

People who were shit get transformed into clouds though.

[Supergrunch]

People who were shit get transformed into clouds though.
Who would want clouds of shit?

[gaggle64]

Can we all just agree that none of us has, or will ever have any idea at all what lies beyond this realm, and all go get hammered now please?

[Supergrunch]

Can we all just agree that none of us has, or will ever have any idea at all what lies beyond this realm, and all go get hammered now please?
Silence! This is philosophy. It isn't supposed to get anywhere. :heh:

[Monopolyman]

To those who say that death is just being lke before you were born, can you really consdier cause and effect here, because you could argue that you were somehow always living before you were born, either scientifically or otherwise; and also, you cannot really say it is just like before you were born if you can't remember what it is like. You can't remember anything until you're about todderler age.

As for after-life, I'm not sure myself, although whoever said that thing about how are brains are too complex to be purely scientific had got me thinking.

[DCK]

You read the rest of my post and next post right?

However your "logic" there is flawed. If you believe there is only one universe your logic has no meaning. If you believe there is an infinite number of universe (as I do), then it makes perfect sense.

The flaw is that at the present time neither of those beliefs have proofs. We have no idea what happened before or at the moment of the big bang, only what happened a few femto-seconds after (10^-15). We also have no proof of wether there are an infinite number of universes.

When there is no proof either way, Its a matter of belief, which one seems most likely to you as a person. Hence you can't argue about logic in this particular case, as your making an assumption that isn't necessarily true or proved.

As someone who is a is strongly atheist, and often has discussion with people who are devout Christians (and also know a fair amount of science), there is no right answer because eventually it does come down to a belief. Many part of Christianity can be disproved but there are many as Scientists we simply don't know, and possibly will never know.You're right there; I meant to say that because we don't know what made the universe to be like this is no reason to bring God in the equation. It's a god-of-the-gaps argument.

[THE ganondorflol]

Wow, this guy makes a shitload of sense!

Nice theory, buddy.

I am just loving this guy more and more everyday!
Also, The fish, I think something smells a bit fishy here. Your idea of Christianity is that of a religion that thinks its better than everyone else. We do not turn a blind eye to someone being racist, especially not Islam. It has often been described as Christianity with bits added on, and we are pleased they believe in something. Take my argument as a sick joke if you like, and take the mick like everyone else on this forum- just recognise it.

[Kurtle Squad]

If there was really a God...he wouldn't put us through this....end of.

[The fish]

I am just loving this guy more and more everyday!
Also, The fish, I think something smells a bit fishy here. Your idea of Christianity is that of a religion that thinks its better than everyone else. We do not turn a blind eye to someone being racist, especially not Islam. It has often been described as Christianity with bits added on, and we are pleased they believe in something. Take my argument as a sick joke if you like, and take the mick like everyone else on this forum- just recognise it.

It London is my point, you appear to be somewhere near Omsk...:laughing:
In response to your point, in all my experiance, no christians seem to responed if they hear something offensive about Islam or Judaism, unless in support of the offender. (this is an example-the opposite applies as well).
I never said that religious folk ignore racism, I said they ignore anti-religious stuff about other religions.
Oh, and if you think religion is the same as race, you are seriously confused, much like a lot of people on the planet are...

[The Bard]

If there was really a God...he wouldn't put us through this....end of.

I agree, plain and simple. Well put.

[Supergrunch]

If there was really a God...he wouldn't put us through this....end of.
What if he creates us so he can get pleasure from watching us suffer?

[The Bard]

What if he creates us so he can get pleasure from watching us suffer?

Then he's not "God" per se is he? God by definition is an omnipotent omnietc, wholly benevolent being.

[Fierce_LiNk]

If I lock this thread, will I be 'healing' that suffering? Therefore, would I be God?

Or would that make me Jesus?

[Supergrunch]

Then he's not "God" per se is he? God by definition is an omnipotent omnietc, wholly benevolent being.
From the OED:

"A superhuman person who is worshipped as having power over nature and the fortunes of mankind; a deity."

Doesn't exclude an evil god.

If I lock this thread, will I be 'healing' that suffering? Therefore, would I be God?

Or would that make me Jesus?
Some might consider you a messiah... :heh:

[Shorty]

That's the difference between you and I. Because you find it hard to explain something and have a hard time accepting things that don't have reasons, you try to explain them with religion. I've always experienced that as a sign of weakness as religion basically takes away the need and challenge for you to answer things you don't know. I think you're misusing the phrase "religion" here. I do not believe in any religion whatsoever. I may think there could be an afterlife or a Higher being or whatever, but not a "religion". Religion is a following of a faith, an absolute belief in something without truth, a named "organisation" of sorts that believes the same things as one another and has it all written down somewhere. I don't try to explain what I can't understand with religion. I simply seek a bit of comfort in wondering why it's inexplicable.

[Smalldude76]

I think you're misusing the phrase "religion" here. I do not believe in any religion whatsoever. I may think there could be an afterlife or a Higher being or whatever, but not a "religion". Religion is a following of a faith, an absolute belief in something without truth, a named "organisation" of sorts that believes the same things as one another and has it all written down somewhere. I don't try to explain what I can't understand with religion. I simply seek a bit of comfort in wondering why it's inexplicable.

I think you'd be called an agnostic then?

[Dyson]

Heaven/Hell argument for me.

Or really, just a Heaven. I don't see how a Hell is logical.

[Ginger_Chris]

This thread had the potential to be a place of discussion about religeon, with well made arguments. These arguements would be backed up with facts or some type of substance. You should all know that jokes or witty remarks aren't really appropriate for a thread like this where too many people can get offended, reasonably or not.

I wonder how long it will take for Godwin's Law to take effect.

[Shorty]

I think you'd be called an agnostic then? Guilty as charged :) Never claimed anything less herein.

[Hellfire]

If I lock this thread, will I be 'healing' that suffering? Therefore, would I be God?

Or would that make me Jesus?

This thread needsa a martyr.
(not me)
:P

[Daft]

This thread had the potential to be a place of discussion about religeon, with well made arguments. These arguements would be backed up with facts or some type of substance. You should all know that jokes or witty remarks aren't really appropriate for a thread like this where too many people can get offended, reasonably or not.

I wonder how long it will take for Godwin's Law to take effect.

Hitler, Nazis...Ooops!:wink:

Thought I would just get it out of the way.

[KingJoe]

I keep wanting to add something to this thread, but I'm always too late and someone else has already said it!
I think it's good that people are asking the questions, the questions are more important than the answer. Anyone who tells you they can explain everything is a liar. I don't see a conflict between evolution and Christianity. I believe in some of the ethics of Christianity, but not necessarily the religious side. Books are written by men. I'm agnostic, but I'm probably Theo-Curious. If there was an answer that people just 'knew' then this thread wouldn't exist. I was about to say that I believe in evolution, but 'Belief' isn't needed, really. Evolution is as real as fire.

^That there is an unconnected set of sentences which isn't illogical.
Whoever was critcising someone else for spelling 'criticize' wrong should look it up in an English Dictionary (British Edition).

[WOOP]

god is the combined life force of everything in the universe and beyond. we are all insignificant but part of something "special"(?) Karma is the balance. god is in all of us
what lies after death is beyond anybodys comprehention


The human race is not ready to understand


i dont care about grammer in forums

[Jordan]

Isn't religion ignorance by definition anyway?

[Kurtle Squad]

Heaven/Hell argument for me.

Or really, just a Heaven. I don't see how a Hell is logical.
You can't see how a place worse than Earth can exist; yet you can believe in some super happy place??:hmm:

[Librarian]

oh my god... perhaps we are only people in a SIM played by a spotty fat teenager.. on the PS3!!!!

well religion is ok.. as long as they keep it to them self.. don't come playing the missonary around my house

[Platty]

Im a Church of England Christian but dont practice it or go to church or anything.

To be honest I dont care much for religion. It causes too many problems in this world. I am also a believer of things that can be explained and proved to me... ie Science, It's all about science :D

In my opinion when we die there is nothing, just like before you are born. Nothing. I hope im wrong and I go off to heaven with 30 virgins..... oh wait thats islam right? :heh:

All I know is that life is short so enjoy it.

[mariosmentor]

Well I was told once by a mystical wise woman of the east that as we exist right now we are on something called the existential plane the were basics of existence where wars, conflict, suffering, pain and death exist.

Once we die our souls raised to another plane, that which I can't remember.
In this plane our astral forms exist in harmony, with a drive for knowlege, plagued however by our actions in our life.

As we gain more knowlege we ascend to another plane and with that are content with another aspect of our life that caused pain and suffering so long ago.

This continues until we reach the highest plain where we are completely free of guilt and are all knowlegeble, in essense god.
From that point we can ascend once more when we wish to the existential plane, where we hope that our knowlege and stength will come with us and help us enjoy a great life.

The old lady also said it granted all sorts of super powers and made you super cool before violating me in the closet.

[Supergrunch]

^That there is an unconnected set of sentences which isn't illogical.
Yes, but it isn't an argument, which is what I was getting at.

[KingJoe]

true.

Also, a probabilistic assessment of religion would lead you to the conclusion that you should, logically, believe in God. Basically, it's worth betting a tenner to win another tenner on the flip of a coin, right? So it's definitely worth betting a tenner to win another twenty, or thirty on the flip of a coin. It's about risk vs reward. Well, nobody is certain that God does not exist. Therefore there is some probability (higher than 0) that God exists. You are betting 80years (roughly) of servitude against finite odds, and the reward is infinite bliss for an infinite period. This is a much more sensible bet than betting your last penny on a coin toss to win 8 billion pounds.

But statistics/probability is guff anyway.

[Supergrunch]

true.

Also, a probabilistic assessment of religion would lead you to the conclusion that you should, logically, believe in God. Basically, it's worth betting a tenner to win another tenner on the flip of a coin, right? So it's definitely worth betting a tenner to win another twenty, or thirty on the flip of a coin. It's about risk vs reward. Well, nobody is certain that God does not exist. Therefore there is some probability (higher than 0) that God exists. You are betting 80years (roughly) of servitude against finite odds, and the reward is infinite bliss for an infinite period. This is a much more sensible bet than betting your last penny on a coin toss to win 8 billion pounds.

But statistics/probability is guff anyway.
Only from a mathematician... :wink:

I think that fails because people aren't happy to bet that there is a god. They want to be faithful.

[KingJoe]

I think I first read about that 'theory' in a discworld book. It says that all the gods took it in turns to fry the bloke who came up with the theory with thunderbolts for being a smart-arse. It does kind of make sense. Ish. In (albeit non-monotonic) logic, we could write:

If there is a God, he'll be pissed off if I don't worship him.
There could be a god.
I should worship God.

Of course, both of the propositions require a degree of belief, and God ain't a logician, he's geometer.

(I promise that's the end of the God-maths- apart from this: "If god did play dice, he'd win"- Ian Stewart)

[/math's geek]

[Supergrunch]

I think I first read about that 'theory' in a discworld book. It says that all the gods took it in turns to fry the bloke who came up with the theory with thunderbolts for being a smart-arse. It does kind of make sense. Ish. In (albeit non-monotonic) logic, we could write:

If there is a God, he'll be pissed off if I don't worship him.
There could be a god.
I should worship God.

Of course, both of the propositions require a degree of belief, and God ain't a logician, he's geometer.

(I promise that's the end of the God-maths- apart from this: "If god did play dice, he'd win"- Ian Stewart)

[/math's geek]
Ian Stewart = win. Have you read Life's Other Secret?

That God thing was originally known as Pascal's wager, but yes, it was in Discworld. You rephrased it in such a mathematical way that I didn't recognise it... :wink:

[The fish]

A question: I mean this totally seriously, and in a non-piss-taking way: Why do you religious folk here abouts believe in your respective religions?

[KingJoe]

[QUOTE=Supergrunch;348937]Ian Stewart = win. Have you read Life's Other Secret?

Noppers. Need to get back into some serious maths literature though, been reading a bit too much pop-sci and not enough proper maths. I'm much more interested in pschology at the moment though, and it's easier to understand!

[Supergrunch]

Noppers. Need to get back into some serious maths literature though, been reading a bit too much pop-sci and not enough proper maths. I'm much more interested in pschology at the moment though, and it's easier to understand!
Life's Other Secret is more about biology than maths... it's about how underlying physical laws control life more than we think. Stewart thinks that in the future, a form of maths will do for biology what calculus did for physics. I wish it were so, but I find it highly unlikely.

[DCK]

I simply seek a bit of comfort in wondering why it's inexplicable.OK, sorry to take that wrongly. I guess some people find saying "I can't explain" incomfortable - there's nothing wrong with that.

[KingJoe]

True wisdom is knowing that you know nothing.

[Ginger_Chris]

I'm sure someone who knows something is more wise than someone who knows nothing.

Admitting your stupid doesn't count as wisdom.

[ZeldaFreak]

When you die, your organic human form simply stops working.

I read a paper written by the researcher of the philosohy department here in hull.

It basically said that your "soul/spirit/chakra" was merely electrical impulses in your mind which when the eyes of a human decodes them they turn into pictures.

He concluded that when we die there can not be an afterlife as it was a means of a story to reassure the frightened. So their is no God who made us, it is milions of reactions taking place over millions of years to get us to this state. Therefore the universe was always hereand that its an infinity type symbol with a universe inside another universe.

[THE ganondorflol]

Was he on drugs?

[Supergrunch]

Was he on drugs?
Frankly, believing in religion is more akin to hallucination.

Nevertheless, this has no bearing on which view is correct.

[Majora's_Incarnation]

No one said Death is a dead end, but its still a sad experience to die, I mean im not an expert on it but others have told me it sucks...:S

[Supergrunch]

No one said Death is a dead end, but its still a sad experience to die, I mean im not an expert on it but others have told me it sucks...:S
Is this during your daily communications with the dead?

[Majora's_Incarnation]

When you die, your organic human form simply stops working.

I read a paper written by the researcher of the philosohy department here in hull.

It basically said that your "soul/spirit/chakra" was merely electrical impulses in your mind which when the eyes of a human decodes them they turn into pictures.

He concluded that when we die there can not be an afterlife as it was a means of a story to reassure the frightened. So their is no God who made us, it is milions of reactions taking place over millions of years to get us to this state. Therefore the universe was always hereand that its an infinity type symbol with a universe inside another universe.

No one said Death is a dead end, but its still a sad experience to die, I mean im not an expert on it but others have told me it sucks...:S

::shrug: Here we go the ol' "the soul dies so there's no God"
if people actally read the Bible they'd know that God says one the Body dies, the soul dies with it... It doent mention anyone going to heaven except for 144 000 people... It also says in Revelations (last book in the bible) that God will make the Earth as good as new:grin: so there wont be an end of the world thing:awesome: im ok with that.

I myself think that the worlds too perfect to be a mistake (you know what i mean evolution and that, not making fun just from what ive heard it sounds like we wernt intended to happen), The Earth being just the right distance away from the sun? Hmmm

Is this during your daily communications with the dead?

Yes that was the joke, glad you picked up on it=D

[Supergrunch]

you know what i mean evolution and that
Explain the flaw with evolution.

I believe it's implicit in any system where the chemical reactions get sufficiently complex and go on for a significant length of time.

[MoogleViper]

But none of this is actually real. It's just an illusion masking the "real world".

[Majora's_Incarnation]

i dont think there's a flaw really... It's just a theory anyway, there's no strong evidence.. Same for God I suppose, Except all the prophecies coming true which is weird if some random guy wrote it...

I dont like the idea of us being some accident, then all we've got to look forward to is death (yay..) there's a point to life .

It'll be quicker for us to find out if God exists than to find out if evoulution is real.. Coz we'd die and go to 'Heaven' (It's not true we've got a ressurection to look forward to:p read the bible..)

[Supergrunch]

i dont think there's a flaw really... It's just a theory anyway, there's no strong evidence.. Same for God I suppose, Except all the prophecies coming true which is weird if some random guy wrote it...

I dont like the idea of us being some accident, then all we've got to look forward to is death (yay..) there's a point to life .

It'll be quicker for us to find out if God exists than to find out if evoulution is real.. Coz we'd die and go to 'Heaven' (It's not true we've got a ressurection to look forward to:p read the bible..)
Strong evidence. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_of_evolution)

I don't know why some people insist there is no evidence for evolution... look at Lucy, and that skeleton of a fish with legs that they found last year.

But anyway, keep up with the arguing, just don't create a straw man out of evolution to do so.

[weeyellowbloke]

i dont think there's a flaw really... It's just a theory anyway, there's no strong evidence.. Same for God I suppose, Except all the prophecies coming true which is weird if some random guy wrote it...

Yeah, I guess the entirety of the fossil record is pretty flimsy evidence. :heh:

I really don't get why so many people have such problems believing evolution. Just because it's prefixed by 'Theory' doesn't mean there isn't any evidence, otherwise you could just as easily say that there isn't any evidence for the 'Theory of Gravity'.

I dont like the idea of us being some accident, then all we've got to look forward to is death (yay..) there's a point to life .

It'll be quicker for us to find out if God exists than to find out if evoulution is real.. Coz we'd die and go to 'Heaven' (It's not true we've got a ressurection to look forward to read the bible..)

While I do agree that there are a lot of very specific things that need to occur for life, the solar system and even the universe to exist it doesn't mean necessarily that it was all a random coincidence or that it was planned. We can see the result but we don't know how the game is played. There are billions of stars in the universe and possibly even more planets, in which case probability would suggest that eventually one would occur with perfect conditions for life. Also the possibility that universes may have been created infinite times before as well. (Unless some cosmologist wants to come along and blast these ideas).

Anyway, apocalypse followed by resurrection doesn't really appeal to me. Sounds a bit too Dawn of the Dead.

[ZeldaFreak]

i dont think there's a flaw really... It's just a theory anyway, there's no strong evidence.. Same for God I suppose, Except all the prophecies coming true which is weird if some random guy wrote it...

I dont like the idea of us being some accident, then all we've got to look forward to is death (yay..) there's a point to life .

It'll be quicker for us to find out if God exists than to find out if evoulution is real.. Coz we'd die and go to 'Heaven' (It's not true we've got a ressurection to look forward to:p read the bible..)

No offence or anything but who created god then?

God's just a character from the biggest tall tale book in the world, the bible doesn't mention dinosaurs - but they were real.

Everything is made up from millions of highly complicated chemical reactions.

Nothing has a "soul" just a highly sensitive organic matter system.

[Ginger_Chris]

There are billions of stars in the universe and possibly even more planets, in which case probability would suggest that eventually one would occur with perfect conditions for life.

When you say billions...
There are about hundred billion stars in our galaxy alone (10^11)
Current estimates suggest there are about 125 billion galaxies.

This gives about 1.25*10^22 stars. Or Twelve Thousand Billion Billion stars. Only about 1 in a hundred are main sequence stars, and only about one in ten have planets. that gives about 10^19 planets.

(oh and anyone who thinks Evolution doesn't happen is just deluding themselves. Theres a stupidly large amount of evidence, you may as well not believe in protons and electrons.)

[Supergrunch]

oh and anyone who thinks Evolution doesn't happen is just deluding themselves. Theres a stupidly large amount of evidence, you may as well not believe in protons and electrons.
Hmm... aren't protons and electrons more of an analogy than anything else, albeit a damn good one?

[DCK]

Hmm... aren't protons and electrons more of an analogy than anything else, albeit a damn good one?
How? In the sense that they are not really particles per se, yeah, but protons, electrons etc. as a general concept are proven right.

[Supergrunch]

How? In the sense that they are not really particles per se, yeah, but protons, electrons etc. as a general concept are proven right.
To the degree that they are an accurate enough model to fit all current observations, and are so indistinguishable from what is correct.

[Kurtle Squad]

To be honest, we shouldn't be questioning protons & all that.....it's Light and those bloody photons!!

[Supergrunch]

To be honest, we shouldn't be questioning protons & all that.....it's Light and those bloody photons!!
I'm not questioning anything, I'm just pointing out that protons etc. are a model. As is all science.

[Flaight]

So where did the life force for the first animal come from. Does bacteria or a self replicating strand of protien contain life force? How about an virus? a non-replicating molecule? atom? proton? quark?

If life force is recycled, if there are more animals now than before does that mean we have more life force per organise than before (theres is a greater density of life in an organism)? If there are less animals now than before are we deemed more alive than animals before us due to higher density? Are some animals more alive than other, if so what decided this; mass, intelligence, number of cells, proximity to other animals?

Can this life force be created or destroyed? How does it pass through a medium (ie from a dead body to living body). Does its effects travel faster than the speed of light? does this mean that life force in different parts of the universe builds up? Can it travel being living animals?

Most importantly do you have any proof, derived mathmatical formula or hypothesis that can be tested?

(I'm not deliberaterly being annoying, just asking you to explain you views. If you can defend them clearly, then you actually believe in them and have thought about what you believe, rather than just revieting whats written in a book)

(oh and I assume your using the word force in a completely non-scientic way. I prefer life quantity, or just life. I wonder if theres a unit measurement of life. or if it obeys heisenberg's uncertainty principle... hmm much to muse on instead of doing productive work)

I just realised someone had actually replied to that post of mine... lol

Anyway. To be honest, I think you took it too far to the point of "smart-arsing" it. My point was simply that, conceptually, it feels more correct scientifically to say that "life" is some sort of quantity that is conserved at the level of universe(s). Not an aweful lot in our understanding of science just "begins" and "ends" without cause and effect creating a cyclic link somewhere.

But anyway. I have no evidence to support it. I don't think this subject lies within the confines of what science can explain at this point in time. I just believe that in the future there will come a time when we discover another medium in which "life" exists, much like energy, and that we will have a device which can measure and observe it in some way. Reincarnation and ghosts etc may very well end up within the confines of future science.

As for the usage of the term 'force', you are right. I shouldn't have used that term at all; it's so misleading. As for whether it obey's uncertainty principle, what I'm talking about is more of the macroscopic relativity (like how life might move from one dead person to a new body) rather than the composition of one life, whatever that may be. I don't even know why you think it matters enough to be mentioned.

[DCK]

Anyway. To be honest, I think you took it too far to the point of "smart-arsing" it. My point was simply that, conceptually, it feels more correct scientifically to say that "life" is some sort of quantity that is conserved at the level of universe(s). Not an aweful lot in our understanding of science just "begins" and "ends" without cause and effect creating a cyclic link somewhere.
Life is nature's way of constructing machines, I don't think you should make it too special.

I don't believe that life is a 'force' - it is more a system than anything else. If the system loses one of its essentials you die.

[Flaight]

I don't think you should make it too special.
I didn't make it special at all. All I did was to bring in the system of conservation, which is an already established concept in science. If anything, I fitted life into the science around us and concluded that reincarnation seems logically sound. Far from making it special. The exact opposite, in fact.

[fanman]

I didn't make it special at all. All I did was to bring in the system of conservation, which is an already established concept in science. If anything, I fitted life into the science around us and concluded that reincarnation seems logically sound. Far from making it special. The exact opposite, in fact.

You gave it a soul to transfer. That's making it special.

[Flaight]

You gave it a soul to transfer. That's making it special.The idea is consistent with today's understanding of science at an abstract level. You seem to have injected a religious interpretation to my view and made it look special. But you did that last part in your mind. Not me.

I strongly believe that life (or soul if you want to call it that) will be a detectable, measurable quantity in the future which science will deal with. Just because life is an unknown entity in science today doesn't mean it will be so forever. If there ever was a break through, I believe that it would follow through a lot of scientific ideas that we already have.

[Hellfire]

Holy crap this thread is still alive?
Er.. proceed.

[fanman]

The idea is consistent with today's understanding of science at an abstract level. You seem to have injected a religious interpretation to my view and made it look special. But you did that last part in your mind. Not me.

I strongly believe that life (or soul if you want to call it that) will be a detectable, measurable quantity in the future which science will deal with. Just because life is an unknown entity in science today doesn't mean it will be so forever. If there ever was a break through, I believe that it would follow through a lot of scientific ideas that we already have.

Then what exactly is being "transfered"? It's a completely ridiculous idea.

[Supergrunch]

The idea is consistent with today's understanding of science at an abstract level. You seem to have injected a religious interpretation to my view and made it look special. But you did that last part in your mind. Not me.

I strongly believe that life (or soul if you want to call it that) will be a detectable, measurable quantity in the future which science will deal with. Just because life is an unknown entity in science today doesn't mean it will be so forever. If there ever was a break through, I believe that it would follow through a lot of scientific ideas that we already have.
But the thing is that life isn't an unknown quantity in science... people began to dispell vitalism once Friedrich Woehler first sythesised urea from inorganic components in 1828. For instance, the seemingly autonomous behaviour of an amoeba can be explained by relatively simple rules, such as drifting down concentration gradients towards food sources and the like.

This isn't to say that I don't believe in consciousness- I think it is an emergent consequence of complex biological systems.

[Flaight]

Then what exactly is being "transfered"? It's a completely ridiculous idea.It was believed long ago that everything had a linear system; everything just started and ended. More scrutiny lead to a much more cyclic, repetitive system to describe our environment. Just as rain falls and water vapourizes and rain falls again, a macroscopic view was often in a system of conservation, where one form (of energy, if you like) changes its appearance to present another without "ending" in absolute terms. That rainfall example may be prematurely simplistic, but it should suffice at the level of this discussion. At any rate, that idea of repetitive cycle crops up in every area of science. It explains why I tend to find cyclic description more scientifically natural than a linear counterpart.

My view is that there is more to life than just a biological system, but not in a supernatural sense. I think there is a medium, which we haven't detected yet, which carries this... form of energy or whatever you want to call it, and it is in a cyclic system of its own, much like most other systems we observe around us. And I believe that life is a combination of this 'source' residing in a bilogical system that is our body.

I guess a lot of this depends on whether you believe life is just a straight forward problem of solving the biological, chemical (as we know it today) puzzle that make up our bodies. Furthermore, some people even believe that human mind is nothing more than just a massive database. I don't have anything to say for or against those views. I just believe that there seems to be more than biology to life, and I happen to hold a view that this... 'life entity', or whatever we are calling it, exists to make us possible and it is not created or lost - instead, they are recycled i.e. it's somewhat akin to the idea of reincarnation in some religious circles, but I personally hold this view without any religious motivation or reliance; it is a logical idea that isn't reliant on religion to exist in a scientific mind. If I used terms like 'reincarnation', it would be out of linguistic convenience (but I do see the pros and cons of this because of people's preconception of such words).

And that system itself, or the idea if you will, is not ridiculous at all. It's perfectly consistent with a lot of other scientific descriptions of this world. In contrast, my ability to believe in it can be described as ridiculous, but on the other hand, every opinion outside the realm of scientific certainty can be spun as ridiculous depending on what angle you take. It also depends on how complete you think our science is and how much you feel the need to ridicule ideas that are not directly supported by today's science in detail.

Incidentally, Supergrunch's point is an interesting one. It lead me to explicitely state that I think our body is just a container to which life (or whatever you want to call it) wires into.